4 more explosions in London

And even LESS remarkable is that fact Great Britain hasn’t capitulated and said,

“We give up. We will now let our “friends†fight this evil on their own.â€

The DO get it!

 

Here we go again, let's all link it back to BUSH too while we're at it. Hey., I know why that dude in Italy said they really just wanted to scare, or play a joke on the Brits. He watches sitcoms, that's what they do on there all the time. As for the comment about the Brits invading...guess they have to invade England., after all it was ALL British Citizens who did this. The trials of equating and justifying TERRORISM, and finding ways to placade and try to "understand it" are over or should be. There are ways to change things, and this should not pervail as one of them. One can look back on Arafat, and say the same, or maybe he's up there with all the virgins. In anycase I especially thank and hope if my littany is not listened to, at least look at Mr Rober Taylor's posts, these make good sense too, and tell it like it is. Is it that hard to figure that these TERRORISTS just want us all dead?????

 

And P.S. thank you Suffring Too.

Note: If you want to surrender to terrorism, suggest you paint your front door with a YELLOW "C".(NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH THE YELLOW START), that way when the Terrorists come here to bomb., they might be inclined to skip your house., or maybe hit it first.

 

oh I meant yellow STAR (as in Star of David)

 

Genocide? The Army of the United States ended the reign of terror of a genocidal dictator in Iraq. Over 200 mass graves have been uncovered that were filled upon his orders. The people of Iraq voted, and the elected government that millions voted into power want our army to stay put to help them eradicate the scourge of Al Quada. Over 90% of the so called insurgents are not Iraqi, they are hard core Al Quada members from other nations who kill the Iraqi people. Our uniformed men and women have taken the battle to our sworn blood enemies and are killing them off.

The Army of the United States (a legal term denoting the combined forces of our active, reserve and national guard organizations) is the best instrument of change on the planet. Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany have been changed for the good, due to our Army. It is a force for good.

We end genocide, we do not make them.

 

Thank you Robert Taylor, you took the words right out of my mouth. FlyingPrius..how can you sit here and say America is doing genocide ... Do you have any idea what genocide is ?? Pol Pot in Cambodia and the Vietnamese killed 1 million persons, bulldozers were shown raking the land of human bones, THAT is genocide. Hitler walked 6 million Jews to their deaths in GAS chambers, that is genocide. Joseph Stalin "frooze" to death 30 million Russians., that is genocide. How about DAFUR., that is genocide. How can you sit here in this forum and compare our actions as genocide...These folks are trying to KILL US.....do you not understand that?????

 

Danny wrote a piece recently about personal attacks. I consider the questioning of the patriotism of someone who disagrees with the misleadership of GW a personal attack.

Please stop it.

 

Prius04., I do not consider this a personal attack. Personal attacks are when a person is directly and addressed specifically. Robert Taylor just said that if you do not see the right of US the United States or its citizens have the right to defend themselves, then you should give up your rights here, and go and take their side, preferably with them. He is stating that there is a difference between honest disagreement, and the carping against the very ones who INSURE your rights to disagree. We know you disagree, that does not give you the right to state inflamatory and deragotory(sp) language. Its like yelling "fire" in a crowded theater, or "got a bomb" on an airplane. Orismo's and your way of stating and just blaming everything back to this society, and expression of deep hate and resentment, then systematically overlooking acts that these countries, people and terrorist do, borders if not encroach the very rights that are given to you to express those views. You then malign and insult the very ones who work and fight to give you these rights. So I don't think this crying "waggon" should work. After all it is not like Mr Taylor looked up you profile and got PERSONAL DATA and INFORMATION., and then linked it so as to embarass you while in a forum discussing an issue is it???? He called no one's name, and was not threatening, if you interpret that, this way, then man..I can come up with a bunch of stuff right here today from your side. So don't start that.

 

And Ps Prius04., If you do email Dr Evan.., please copy and paste the entire context of the message.

 

I suspect this is an allusion to Spain. It's a cute and widespread error to suggest that Spain turned tail and ran from Iraq after they were attacked. Because what actually happened was Spain removed their troops from Iraq, and sent an even larger contingent to Afghanistan.

You see, the Spanish people wanted to ACTUALLY fight in the war on terror. Not pretend to in Iraq.

So it wasn't a rejection of the war on terror. It was a rejection of GWs leadership.

But you won't find this fact in much of the American press. The American press is too busy making GW loook good in repayment for all that GW has given the owners of that press, and for what they hope for in the future.

 

IA (and Robert Taylor too), there are many people who take the Either you are with us or you are with them... implication in Mr Taylor's wording to be a personal attack. Many of us question our leader's actions on any given issue. When we question their actions publicly does not mean we are anti US. Rather it is our right AND DUTY as citizens of this country or any other democracy to stand up and take an active part in it, failure of its citizenry to do so will only lead to stagnation of that society.

Regards
Terry

 

This has been totally and completely discredited. Even the 9/11 commission made this very clear. Al Qaeda and Saddam were enemies and everyone in the reality based community knows this.

Yes and this is why the overwhelming majority of Americans supported that incursion into Afghanistan. But because we left that part of the job undone, the Taliban are re-grouping.

Actually, there might indeed be some advocates of Al Qaida that believe this. But according to the analysis of scientists, most members of Al Qaeda became members because of the west's support of the dictatorships that ran their countries.

But in 2005, most of the current members, and their ranks are screaming upwards, have joined because of what is perceived by them as GW's flagrant attempt to control Iraqi oil. And GW's killing of 20k to 100k innocent Iraqis.

It's a myth that all Muslims want us dead. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that most Muslims want to move to America and become Americans. Just like peoples from all over the world. They love our freedom, they love the opportunity that this country once gave to the common person.

But GW's war is making more and more of them hate us, so over time, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy that all Muslims will someday hate us. Not because of the American people and what we stand for, but because of GW's mismanagement of the war on terror. Right after 9/11, Pew Institute polls indicated that most Syrians, Egyptians, Saudis Arabians and others were against terrorism. More recent polls have indicated a resounding increase in those that embrace terrorism, and a resounding increase in the numbers that embrace suicide as an acceptable technique. But it needs to be noted, that the numbers in those countries that favor world terrorism is still below 50%. But thanks to GW, it is climbing rapidly.

Oh, and it's beginning to look like Al Qaeda was never that much of a centralized force. And now thanks to GW, there are many many mini Al Qaedas springing up all over the world.

 

IALTMANN,
Genocide was probably too strong of a word to describe what is happening in Iraq. Millions of people aren't dying, but still thousands of them are dying because of us. What still concerns me is that you say "These people are still trying to kill us". Were any of the terrorists in the 9/11 attack from Iraq? Why are we in Iraq? No WMDs have been found, and I still haven't heard a convincing argument how Iraq is tied to 9/11.
I recognize your argument that the U.S. army has stopped large threats in the past like the Japanese and the Germans. However, I don't feel we are correctly using our power this time; terrorism is different. Yes, terrorism is a problem, but is the war in Iraq causing more terrorism? I know it's hard to sit around and "do nothing", but since we've been in Iraq there have been rashes of attacks there and closer to home like in England. Should we choose to perpetuate terrorism, or try to "ignore" it? I know this is far from a "black and white" issue, but I am worried how some people think it is. I don't believe we can just go out and fight everyone who hates us until the world ends. I think it would be valuable if America stepped back and introspectively examed the our situation. Can we go on endlessly fighting something that isn't specific to a country?

 

HERE ARE SOME OF THE GARBAGE..THAT WE ARE SUPPOSED TO ACCEPT., AND NOT MAKE

"IMPLICATIONS" or NOT TAKE THEM AS "ANTI US"


Do you honestly expect us to sit here and not respond to this garbage that you spewing out ??

Look, it is a new world out there, and one thing different from the days of ABC,CBS and NBC and the days when Al Gore invented the internet, is that there is FREE SPEECH ON BOTH SIDES.

DO NOT EXPECT TO MAKE WHAT WE FIND AS
PERSONALLY

Misleading
Insulting
Derrogatory
Inflamatory

It was not that far back, that I was forced to return home from war, and I had to turn in:

souvenirs
pictures
uniforms
uniform patches
dog tags

All that was because of the free speech rights where these very items were been used, stolen, sold and bartered by individuals, and then used in demonstrations and activities against the efforts of that war. So now I have little or no momento's to show to my kids and grand kids ..who's rights were trampled?

Here's some of it from this link..I think Mr Taylor's posts in light of that is totally reasonable. If you can't stand the kitchen (or FHOP) then you need to find a way to express your views in a rational and less insulting way.

Can't wait for Blair to try to claim--again--that these attacks had nothing to do with British occupation forces in Iraq.

Actually, most reality based people believe this. There were 3 recent independent studies by GW's CIA, an Isreali study, and a Saudi Arabian study that all indicated that thanks to GW's war, more and more "middle class" Arabs are now joining the terrorist cause. And they are joining in droves.

Britain angers fundamentalist Muslims by participating in the Iraq occupation. When Britain witdraws, it will face fewer attacks

Egypt is, however, a partner in the "coalition of the willing."

You're also changing the subject. Or can you possibly believe that the terrorists want to waste their resources striking at infidels who aren't invading or supporting the opppression of their nations? Can you possibly think that a terrorist cell would pass up a chance to strike against a major partner in the "war on terr" in favor of bombing a cafe in, say, Switzerland? Why do you think they ignored Bern, a city full of infidels, in favor of multiple attacks in London--which has a greater concentration of Muslims?

No, they'll strike against the interests of the nations they fear, or act to overthrow their own governments if they see a chance to set up a fundamentalist regime more to their liking. Even when they strike against Western civilians, they are hoping to influence governments. They aren't just insane haters who kill for fun; they are killers driven by political forces, too.

As killers, they could efficiently murder individuals--drag someone into an alley and cut his throat. That they don't do a lot of this, that they concentrate their resources so as to cause the greatest terror, shows that they do manage to keep the mindless impulse to kill in check.

Failing to understand that the terrorists have some legitimate gripes mixed in with all the murderous hate dooms us to an eternal cycle of retaliation

This thread made me think of the biggest divider in recent history. GW.

After 9/11, the entire world was on board in the war on terror and the support to go into Afghanistan was widespread.

Now we have a joke of a "coalition of the willing" with the actual war on terror languishing while Bush finishes his sideshow in Iraq. And Arabs and Muslims all over the world clamoring to join the terrorists.

Thank you GW for making us phenomenally less safe.

The chance of a mushroom cloud over an American city is 100 times higher now than 2 years ago. And this is increasingly the view of most Americans.

What's even more remarkable is England hasn't announced that they plan to invade a country that had nothing to do with the bombings.

Don't they get it?

Bush went to war, which has led to the death of possibly hundreds of thousands of people and has caused agony and distress for even more people. Bush said that he consulted a "higher father" before going to war. I take this to believe that Bush thinks God would have approved of a war that resulted in so much death and misery. Where in the Bible is war or genocide condoned? To me, Bush says and does some pretty atrocious deeds and justifies it with his religious standpoint

I suspect this is an allusion to Spain. It's a cute and widespread error to suggest that Spain turned tail and ran from Iraq after they were attacked. Because what actually happened was Spain removed their troops from Iraq, and sent an even larger contingent to Afghanistan.

You see, the Spanish people wanted to ACTUALLY fight in the war on terror. Not pretend to in Iraq.

So it wasn't a rejection of the war on terror. It was a rejection of GWs leadership.

But you won't find this fact in much of the American press. The American press is too busy making GW loook good in repayment for all that GW has given the owners of that press, and for what they hope for in the future.

 

flyingprius,
Thank You! it couldn't have been stated better, you are wize far beyond your years!!!

 

Good Post Flying Prius

Yes the war is not black and white. I think Terrorism is, its black and evil, and yes possibly some of our actions may be causing surges. But in this situation now, we cannot surrender to Terrorism, it is not in the nature of the terrorists to stop when appeased., never has been and never will be. One reason even most Arab leaders and countries hated Arafat (privately) was that his intentions from day one was to push Israel into the sea, period. This is the type of diplomacy you cannot negotiate with. Saddam., had some WMD's early on., his strategy was to re-build certain components so as to enable his country to rapidly re-deploy and use if needed after lifting of SANCTIONS. Perhaps also part of the strategy involved fooling international intelligence organizations into believing he has massive stockpiles. Obviously there was sucess there, if the premise is that Iraq had no WMD's today, and perhaps I'll even say that may be true. But one cannot deny that he was developing a way to accomplish these goals, and that ONCE able to do so he would not hesitate to be a threat to Arab and non Arab neighbors. All this is despite all the atrocities and other evil that has been uncovered. So do I think GW erred in removing this man, NO.

 

PS all others too:

GOOD POSTS = GOOD RESPONSES

 

IA, I really have no idea what your quoting of numerous prior posts means above.

But I suspect you are trying to suggest that criticizing GW is the same thing as hating America.

Or that attacking American policies is being unpatriotic.

If this is what you meant above, you really have no idea what this country is all about. And IA, I never asked you to accept what I say. I encourage you to debate all you want. But debate against my points, and NOT by attacking me. And I still feel that when someone questions another's patriotism, they have sunken the debate. No one deserves that. And in my opinion, it is a personal attack.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel"
(Patrick Henry.)

"It is the first responsibility of every citizen to question authority." (Benjamin Franklin)

"Dissent is the highest form of patriotism." (Thomas Jefferson)

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - (Theodore Roosevelt)

"If freedom of speech is taken away, then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter." (George Washington)



______________________________

These have nothing to do with patriotism, but I thought they were cute.
"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed - and hence clamorous to be led to safety - by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary." - H. L. Mencken

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." - John Stuart Mill
(Mill wrote this back in the mid 19th century. So the definition of a conservative may be quite different than what it means today.)

 

Ialtman said...

"Look, it is a new world out there, and one thing different from the days of ABC,CBS and NBC and the days when Al Gore invented the internet, is that there is FREE SPEECH ON BOTH SIDES."

Two minor problems here:

1.) Al Gore did not invent the internet and never claimed to, but some media hack (and I am in no way implying he was associated with the GOP in any way), claimed that Mr Gore claimed that.
2.) Free speech has always been open to all sides, although there are some who are trying to eliminate that right.

As far as the problems you had in returning from Vietnam, people were wrong to condemn our returning troops there is no doubt about that. But it is also wrong to condemn someone today who feels we are not taking the best possible path in The Global Struggle Against Fundamental Extremists. The old cliche' still holds true, "two wrongs don not make a right"

P.S. Please check out my age, I know something of the Vietnam era as well. We both have far too many friends and relatives name engraved on a black granite wall in DC. Lets work together in thir memories

 

Agree about the wall there tleonhar..a nineteen year old just posted something intelligent, and I gave him an intelligent response. All I know is it seems one side whom had full media control mostly in the ABC/CBS/NBC days, now does not like getting caught and argued with. That is how it comes accross day after day after day. The long post I did, showed this over and over. I responded exactly as the assinine nature of the statements. When someone from the other side showed some basic courtesy, and explained their viewpoint carefully, I responded in kind. The reasons Taylor, self and a few others resort to such tatics are the same reasons used to discredit and mislead people with stupid and prepostorous statements, like the genocide one.. among others. When substantive arguements are put forward, in a clear and repectful way, then these I can respond to and discuss in a like manner, otherwise it will be garbage in = garbage out (or back). Thank you for your service, and my respect to the friends that we both have on that "wall".