2015 PIP to will have a significantly longer range

Have you looked at what you need to charge that 85 kWh battery in any reasonable amount of time? They have multiple chargers built into them for a reason. 240 isn't enough, you need 240 X 2 one to each charger

14.5 hours to charge on a 20amp 240 circuit.

 

At this point in time, you are at work what at least 8 hrs a day, home for another 8 minimum, that makes 16, so for 300 plus miles, a day, I would go this route. Hell for 300 miles a week, I would do it!
That being said, yes it does take double chargers to do the job. Good starting point, in 5 years maybe we are down to only 1 charger and 10 hrs.
It still beats a PIP, Leaf and Volt.
As time goes by, I would hope technology leaps forward in the automotive battery and power systems divisions.
I would really like to see a large chunk of petrol dino's disappear only to be replaced by much more efficient non Petrol cars!

 

+1

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Its

Its not how big it is, its what you do with it...

The question is how many miles of charge per hour one can get. With a bigger battery you can actually charge less often, but need to balance that with how far you drive and how long you sit. For a road trip beyond battery range, wich is infrequent by maybe not uncommon, you want it fast. Doing it as 2xL2 is less expensive and more likely to find a charger, right now, than doing an L2 and a L3 charger (like on the leaf). Where I parked my car the other day there were 4L2 but zero L3 chargers.

 

To me it sounds like you have been reading John1701a for a long time and still do not get it. He correctly understands that the entire PACKAGE matters: price, range, car size, and CS performance as leading criteria.

 

Yes DrI, but the Tesla Model S uses their own proprietary connector, as each HPC charger is rated at 10KW.
They do have an adapter availble to convert to J-1772, but it's not clear you can use 2 of them, if you have 2 onboard chargers.

The point is, most will not charge everyday, and Tesla is banking on that, as their pack is rated for just 300 full cycles...

 

From the day the first gas station was out of business ( 20-40 yrs ago ) that was the beginning of the end of the use of gasoline as the primary motive source, it may take a century to complete but it is happening. We are experiencing a rust belt of the oil industry. That's Progress. We are a part of this Van Guard.

 

Minor detail

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I do not believe that 300 cycles is correct. Do you have a reference?
Tesla recommends that the Model S is plugged in anytime that it is not in use.
The battery warranty is 8 years and unlimited miles for the 85kwh pack.

Between those two facts, I would be shocked if the batteries were only rated for 300 full cycles.

On top of that, the Roadster battery packs (granted, these are very different) have a pretty darn good/small rate of capacity decline.

 

I was at a Tesla event in Princeton last summer showing a Beta model of the Model S. One of the reps said they had a 90 amp proprietary charger to install for home charging in only a couple of hours. I imagine that would need some significant re-wiring in older homes.

Something like this:
High Power Wall Connector (charging, high power connector, hpc) | Charging | Tesla Motors

 

20 amps * 240 volts * 14.5 hours = 69.6 kWh. Regardless of use.

If you want to drive at 70 mph, you are going to need at least 12 kW before efficiency losses*.

So for every hour you drive, you need to charge for 2.5 hours from a 240v 20 amp charger. If the whole car system is 80% efficient**, that means over 3 hours charge for every hour driven.

Tesla's charger does not seem to be limited by the car, but rather by your house.

*assumes a Prius shaped car
** which would seem a practical limit into the foreseeable future.

 

Many (perhaps half) of recent houses in my area only have 100 Amp Service. Significant re-wiring would therefore probably mean from the pole.

 

300 cycles wouldn't be good. That's like 6 years of charging once a week. But then again, that's 300 FULL cycles. Not every charge will be a fillup, but many will be charging much more often than 1 time per week.

 

Of course it does. And I do believe most people do understand this. What John doesn't seem to understand and most people do, is that the 'best' package is different for different people.
I am happy the PiP fits his needs perfectly.

 

There is NO place they say its 300 full cycles, however, they are using "commodity" lithium cells, that # is based on the technology they are using. 300 miles @ 300 miles/charge is a 90,000 mile pack life. The 8 years is more telling, as the batteries have a "calendar" life as well.. in other words, they degrade over time, if they are used or not...

It will be a long time before the actual pack life is known, and by "pack life" we are talking about %80 of original capacity.. it will still be usable at %70 of original capacity, but many will want to replace it.

there has been some discussion on the Tesla forum, its a big unknown, but don't count on more than 300-500 full cycles... if you have the 85KW pack, and only discharge it %30 before charging, that is only a 1/3 cycle, not a full cycle...

Battery life / warranty | Forums | Tesla Motors

 

True enough, but John is interested in widespread adoption of energy and oil saving cars. This requirement narrows the field considerably.

 

Thermal efficiency from 38% to 45% should boosts the gas engine (HV operation) toward 60 MPG. That will then need to balance out with how much cleaner the grid has become. I think the total energy efficiency (including beyond tailpipe emission) will drive the battery size and EV range.

Toyota mentioned in the NS4 concept that the charge time would remain the same, despite longer EV range! We'll see how that will get accomplished.

Giving a choice with different battery size would also make sense since some states have cleaner electricity than others.

 

I would add affordable to that. You can't adopt widely if it is not affordable even at a compact size.

 

I have to disagree with you a bit on Tesla being THE role model. It may indeed be the "bigger-better" EV, and we might want to evolve there someday, but it doesn't necessarily mean it is ready for prime time. Assuming we could afford them, which we can't, where would you charge them? You really can't, except at home with their proprietary connector, or settle for level 2...which isn't exactly available yet either. And if EVERYBODY had a Tesla and plugged into the grid at the same time...because they could..., the grid would melt.

Batteries in moderation are good, as in the Volt, PiP, imiev, LEAF, etc. But if you want to tow a boat, at 75 mph, on a gravel road, with 7 passengers and their luggage, for 350 miles...there are better ways. EVs are more "need specific" than ICEs...They will be very good for certain functions...but lousy at others for some time to come.

 

thats the easy part. replace the 2.2KW onboard charger with a larger version, 3.3KW, 6.6KW, whatever you need.
the common J-1772 EVSE's being installed for public use are mostly 30A capable (6.6KW), so it would make sense to use that as a maximum. Given this information, you could go up to a 9.9KW pack (which is more than double the 2012 PiPs 4.4KW pack), and still be able to charge it in 90 minutes L2 (with a 6.6KW onboard charger).

assuming they use the same %70 of the SOC, that gives 6.9KW of usable energy, more than doube the 2012's 3.1KW or so.. so an EV range of 24-30 miles (double the current 12-15 mile range)