2013 Volt: 98MPGe, 38miles EV range

Oh I'm sorry. They shouldn't have did that. I find that extremely rude, especially for them to do that to someone who has been involved for so long. I don't know why people seem so polarized on what car they support. It's weird how cars are becoming like politics.

Honestly, I more so followed my friend Douglas. He has a PiP and has been able to get BETTER numbers than I can in the Volt. However, he has a very short commute. I saw your newest posts on your website, very good.

 

Is a 2.0L turbo going to get better gas mileage than the 1.4L? If not, this sounds like a step in the wrong direction. I haven't seen anyone complaining about the Volt's power (the one ride I got in one, power was touted).

 

Well, running on less gasoline almost no matter how you slice it IS more efficient. Considering the differences in energy efficiency. I think they need to make an EV Volt, but I understand why they aren't yet. The same way that Toyota saw the EV1 project and got scared but was smart and knew they needed to make a hybrid.

We need to utilize EV for multiple reasons, one being to not be tethered 100% to the use of a foreign fuel that puts us all at risk. I truly do believe that it is way easier to operate gas free with a Volt than a PiP, even though you can also do it with a PiP. I think it brings the EV capability on a plug in car to many who wouldn't find the PiP to have enough EV capability.

I like having year round EV capabilities. Burning zero gas until I travel far away. I have electric a/c (heat included) and can drive like a maniac and not use gas. I know performance isn't a good reasoning, but in the end it's what mattered to me. I like enjoying my drive as well.

In time there will be options but as for now at least we have a few options and we are definitely moving in the right direction! BTW I am not one of those people who go around touting the Volt as an EV or being super specific about what kind of EV it is. I tell them it's a hybrid. If they seem interested I then explain the whole story of it being an EREV, but then I tell them there is somewhat of a debate because of the mechanical linkage that can happen. However, I don't always do that. Some people just get confused with that.

 

The gas engine doesn't have much effect on the Volt's "power." It actually still utilizes full EV up to 20mph when the engine is on. Even if it is charging, it will do this and just make up the difference later. It has a very smooth and low rpm curve. It's really just a generator primarily, but when it couple in or uses the torque it's doing what I think of as "leaching" power. It doesn't ever seem to accelerate or rev up due to an increase in power request. It does ever so slightly, but at any speed regardless of throttle request. It does this just to make the car feel familiar to the masses.

 

Very good post drinnovation, I wouldn't have been as good at expressing that.

And USB, as a long time Prius driver I was disappointed because I found out that the ICE components were not as good, or really even that close to the Prius. Recently they did make an improvement but unfortunately like most things only seems to be available in CA. One of my many criticisms of the Volt. They have added an air pump to apparently promote better burning of the remaining fuel or something in the exhaust system. So it's much better. It all bothered me primarily because I drive so many gas miles compared to the normal Volt user. Perhaps that's why I'm still in check as to it's limitations and drawbacks.

In the Volt's defense though, almost everyone I know who owns a Volt, (and that is now a LOT of people) seem to barely ever use gas. The people who were ready to fork over the large purchase price knew they were ready for an EV, but wanted to be able to utilize their car for longer trips. There has been many debates over why didn't you get an EV and rent a car. I think it boils down to, it makes them feel better to do it on the fly, and not have full on range-anxiety just ICE anxiety. (Also a good argument for the PiP over a full EV.)

A really neat site to check out is voltstats.net It is a privately owned website that taps into onstar data. Users have to register the site as a device so it can pull readings and information. It tracks Volts all over the country. Now some Volts on there, are like mine in the sense that I would probably have the same MPG as a PiP. I hope to do better in the future, but I have driven almost 34k miles in just 18 months. Keep in mind though, when we run our own calculations we have all found that OnStar, and our cars seem to be off on their calculations, but Voltstats isn't too far off.

 

Yes! Having the Volt has actually motivated me to put solar on my house. I haven't yet, but I am doing it, and have talked to companies and looked into doing it myself, and set aside the funds for it!

 

Yup, I am glad to see they are starting to focus on the efficiency. It didn't start out that way though. It started as EV first and when the range runs out, gas engine would extend it. Volt has evolved so much and it now operates very similar to Prius PHV.

Thank you! If you ever see such bashing on Prius PHV or Ford Energi PHV, please straighten it out. All these back and forth discussion between "Volt people" and "Prius people" allow a better understanding of the disadvantages and advantages.

Volt owners on PC are way more open minded. This allowed constructive discussion not possible in any other forum/blog.

 

The curves are only slightly different unless you keep it floored past 60 mph. That of course is not what I meant by full power. If you apply the equivalent full power instead of one scenario, you should understand the volt is full power, and as your graph shows the ev power in the volt is stronger than the blended in the prius phv (demo).
+1

You will get faster response, but the hp is likely correct. Think of it this way. The chart is for keeping the car floored. If you are going 55mph and then ask for more power, in EV mode the power from the battery will be applied instantly. If you are in range extender mode it needs to wait for the engine to speed up to apply the horsepower. Your perception and the chart are in agreement, its just that the chart does not include transients.

First, as I pointed out before, you don't fit the likely profile of some that buys a plug-in. I don't think they are going to ask you what criteria you would choose for them. Most of those actually throwing down there money do care more about using less gas than "efficiency" or "ghg". Second the prius will only be out what, 6 months before the volt again gets more efficient in CD mode - 98mpge versus the phevs 95mpge.

Now I don't know many environmentalists that would think using gasoline was better than wind or sun
Many would consider tailpipe emissions and ghg from power plants. Here you need to know what the power generation is for the phev and percent its electric instead of gas. I'm sure for most volt owners the car is going to have lower emissions.

 

The post-rollout perspective of PHV is very different from what we had to deal with prior to availability. There's no reason on anyone's part to feel troubled by that. It's just what happened and there should be an effort to raise awareness showing how different things are already.

It is frustrating though, that some just outright dismissed the early model data we had and intentionally raised concern on operational aspects we already knew were non-issues. But that's in the past now.

We really are attempting to establish constructive discussion. It's unfortunate that the ally we sought years ago in the effort to promote plug-in vehicles is only now accepting of that olive branch. It was misunderstood for far too long. But hey, gotta start somehow.

 

Yup, mountain mode (as well as Hold mode) violates EREV. We disagreed then and still do now. If the minimum SOC changes from 30% to 50%, then 30% is not minimum. e.g, minimum cannot change.

I don't think it is pointless. EREV sounded good during the concept Volt. It was easy to understand but after engineering it, things changed. The gas engine can mechanically turn the wheels. The gas engine now does more than simply extend the range once the EV range runs out. Now, we are finding out the gas engine can be used even with a full charge.

 

Really interesting (what I truly believe to be) fact btw, even when transmission and conversion losses are factored in, burning coal is still using less power than gasoline due to the refining process.

This was written by Doug Korthof, who recently passed away: (Please let me know if the link doesn't work, it's a note from my facebook.)

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Yeah, honestly long ago my opinion was even different. I was very opposed to any mechanical linkage. I actually didn't want it in the car anyway. I wanted to drain the oil and the gas tank! But.. that was stupidity and now I see the error in my thinking on that completely.

Funny thing though, I was defending the Prius, and the PiP but ... only on the other side! lol I didn't realize what was going on here, I had no idea the gap of communication existed. I will definitely make myself more available now though. The communication on this forum has always been a step ahead. Not taking a stab at any particular other forum, but ALL of them. haha

 

Now, that's a spin! You can't spin your way out, if a 4 seater compact is less efficient than a 5 seater midsize.

 

Isn't that an extremist view? You bought a car with an ICE and you hate to use it? A natural thought came up.... why buy it then? Wouldn't you be sending a mix message?

Would you still hate using the ICE if it is better for the environment? I know it depends on the source of your electricity but I am using the average carbon content in the grid electricity.

Another way to phrase the question is... would you still enjoy a full acceleration in EV if it takes more energy from well-to-wheel and knowing the gas engine is getting a free ride and not participating in the acceleration?

 

Yes it would be more efficient. But lets take a step back, those things are only rumors let's go through them one at a time. First the 1.4L is not likely to make it in the gen II. This is likely true, and the spreader of the rumor seemed most confident of that. The second was the gen II will come out in 2013 as a 2014 model. I don't think this is likely. 2015 or 2016 seem more likely for a redesign.

I didn't bring up the 2L turbo gm has because it is bigger, heavier, and cost more than the 1.4L. If they are trying to get it out in a year though the 2L requires the least redesign. It should already be more efficient than the 1.4, it has DI and other things to make it very efficient. In a volt they likely would change the valve timing and turbo for efficiency instead of power, but these are minor changes compared to adding di and different valving to the 1.4L. VW has successfully used cylinder deactivation on their 4cyl turbo, and since gm also does this on their 6 and 8 cylinder models they likely can do it here. It is a fair amount of work to go from 4 cylinder to 3 as I have stated, so this is not out of the question. Think of it, it can run as a 1L 2 cylinder or a 2L 4 cylinder and they can cut down the buffer size of the battery since the engine is capable of full power. If they do this they may add a "sport" blended mode to accelerate faster with electricity and motor. This would be different than hold. Both motors would likely be replaced and the new engine would be clutched in at lower speeds. The new engine being larger would require a redesign of the front of the car, and in doing so perhaps gm will make it more aerodynamic. I don't put much stock in this rumor though.

 

Haha. USB, I observe that from an engineering and technical standpoint you intrinsically believe the Volt is less efficient. I suppose under certain operating circumstances, you could be right. Such as if we assume an equal amount of use of the materials provided (for example, there is a motor, and an engine, so let's say 50/50) to utilize all the materials put into the car, then it wouldn't be as efficient. However, if you can get past the waste of building the inefficient gas engine, and coupling it to the car and not utilizing it, then the Volt can easily be more efficient.

In fact, I would go so far as to say if you truly factor in all the normal hybrid benefits such as regeneration, and electric motor working in harmony with the gas engine, but with 40 miles full EV from the start, it could be more efficient. It's hard to beat the efficiency of an electric motor, even when afterward you get fairly inefficient. I honestly think due to the weight of the Volt, and it's slightly higher drag that it's a pretty decent efficiency!

If only they could train it to do a 3rd blended mode when you knew you were going cross country, and beef up the emissions on every Volt, and get 5 seats that would be the holy grail of cars. (IMO.) lol However, it was one of those deals where the cost is already so high, and so many people plan on, and don't drive the car over 40 miles in any given trip so it could be money wasted. In fact, for a few of my friends, having a gas engine at all was a total waste. I have one friend who owns a huge business, he has a jet that I believe cost 50 million dollars or something to that effect. He has a Volt, and drives it 99% of the time! Every time he has burnt gas, it's only due to "engine maintenance mode." -edit: The reason I bring up this friend is because he has come to expect a certain amount of "niceness" from a car. However, he isn't as showy as one would expect. Surprisingly, the Volt is a perfect blend of nice interior, performance, and efficiency that he has replaced some very expensive cars with it.

So basically, what I would say is that the Volt can't be made too efficient on the gas side unless people use it more. Otherwise it's a wasted investment. Interestingly as I'm sure it's been discussed before, my perfect solution would be a FULL EV Volt, but a simple trailer that would couple onto the car and provide range extension. Then it's expandable, upgradeable, and you could get whatever level of efficiency you want to invest in as option become available.

 

That's the kind of statement I dislike. I don't think Volt is radically different. It is similar to Prius and the PHV model even more. There are minor differences. Volt can accelerate pedal to the metal in EV mode with an oversized electric motor and battery pack but there are consequences/trade-offs.

 

I agree, but from a different standpoint. Well, half same half different. drinnovation, you make great points, amazing points. However, remember there is no need to insult either car such as saying "PiP is a weak attempt to catchup." Actually I always thought the PiP was an attempt to put a formal option out there for people who were unofficially altering their cars. Basically providing a safer, and more thorough way of integrating what plug-in converters were doing. I would say Volt is very different, extreme... perhaps. As it does try to ween people off the idea of using gas. (Perhaps as batteries improve, say the Leaf sees a 300mile range, people will feel comfortable enough to jump over!)

BUT using the last sentence and demeaning the PiP isn't going to make your point. Just makes people mad and defensive. That opens the door to lots of other non constructive arguments such as "The Volt using planetary sun gears, and coupling the engine is basically them ripping off the Prius' planetary gear set!" (Just an example.) lol