2013 Volt: 98MPGe, 38miles EV range

Unfortunately for your conclusion there are way too many assumptions made. Assumptions about usage and utilization of EV mode and the like. There are variables, and the fact is if it uses less gas than the mpg or mpge is most likely a better number. Whether or not is is better for the environment is disputable though.

 

You are ignoring usage again.
How efficient each of these cars is depends upon the driving and charging patterns.
Take two extreme cases. First, a driver drives 11 miles each day and charges once a day. In this case, the PiP is a clear winner over the Volt due to its lower weight.
Second, another driver drives 30 miles per day and charges once a day. In this case the PiP would use its full battery plus about 16 miles of gas (say .3 gallons for argument sake).
In this case, the Volt wins out.

Now, these are very specific cases and how efficient a PHEV or EV is depends a lot on usage patterns.
But I don't see how you can say Toyota got the Electric/gas mix right as a blanket statement. For someone it might be right, for someone else it may not be.

 

Another thought too,

if they were to make the smaller capacity plug in Volt which is an understandable suggestion, it might not be able to perform. Think about it, one of it's functions is mountain mode. For it to perform in the mountains it has to float the battery at 40%. If you diminish the battery capacity by about half you can only utilize 10% before you would run out of EV in the mountains. I don't think it's enough of a buffer for it to perform properly. Especially since it probably wouldn't just be 50% of the capacity hit, due to the amount of useable battery over actual battery.

Also it has to be able to draw the full KW or HP out of the battery and supply it to the motors. I am sure that would have a hit to the vehicle's performance specs AND perhaps put the battery through faster and more damaging wear.

At that point, it's dangerously close to a diesel electric train or something. From a coolness standpoint it's pretty cool. However, I just feel like it wouldn't be worth all the systems. It's annoying for many because it could bring the price down to an affordable level, but that might make the entire investment not worth it any longer. Just food for thought.

In fact, if I could pay extra to increase my battery capacity I would. I am hoping they will offer upgrades as replacements someday for a fee.

 

Why in the world are you still beating this dead horse then?

 

Well the volt would be more efficient. That is what MPGe is all about, but depending on your power source YMMV I don't understand why you keep claiming it isn't, without giving some example of powering. Without being ignorant, the volt is more efficient with the electricity from the wall, than the prius is from the gas tank. I don't know what science you are talking about.

But the EPA does not try to analyze your situation with fueling, and we vary a great deal. It would not make sense to guess the customer was really concerned mainly about some average green house gas on the grid. And if you do look at the ghg from the grid in 2009, that volt will still produce less than a prius using gas. Where it will produce more is if you go many miles with gasoline. If we project to today a 2013 volt will produce about as much ghg as a prius using gasoline if you use the average grid and travel about 30% of volt miles on gas. Go further on gas the prius will win. But we don't charge on the average grid. My power, gwmort's, hill's, drinovation, is much cleaner than the average grid, which makes the volt produce even less. Now if you are some guy in Indiana and decide not to buy wind then you will produce more than average. YMMV. That is the key. The prius is not going to produce less in most of the households that the volt is sold in. Plug-ins do not randomly go on the grid. That should be your main take away. The second one is if you want to reduce carbon footprint, and you can switch to renewables, that will do it. But even if you don't NYC and California are much cleaner than places like Montana or Indiana.

I am sure they did there homework in 2008. Its 2012 today. Batteries are less expensive, the grid is cleaner. Its good to have choices, and the volt and prius phv are different choices. They have different tradeoffs, but the phv didn't use a smaller battery to optimize gas use, it blends gas with electricity because the battery is not big enough to provide full power. This allows it to take up less of the vollume of the car and cost less. I don't see any optimization in undersizing a component. Can you show a paper that says 4.4kwh is more optimal than 9kwh or 6kwh?

 

Hold mode: "

I just did a little search, and the London LEZ (Low Emision Zone) penalty seems to have been radically understated. I found a table listing the various penalties for non-compliant vehicles, and they are ENORMOUS. a passenger vehicle of the Volt's size has a penalty of 250 Pounds Sterling PER DAY that doubles if not paid within 14 days! THAT is what Hold Mode is for!" -my friend Dr. Mike​

Penalty Charges | Low Emission Zone | Transport for London

​

 

John, I wanted to say I have been reading your Prius personal logs. I wanted to say that I like them much better now. A few things I felt were unnecessary but I don't blame you as I understand you were attacked quite a bit on your stance and unfairly treated. I know that myself and most of my Volt owning friends would never call the Prius "pathetic." On behalf of myself and other Volt owners, I want to say sorry to anyone who feels we take this stance. The Prius of course, can evolve and become more EV and less gas. In fact, I definitely see it happen. Years and years ago, I would have put a bet on them doing it first! Any way, I can't wait to keep the good discussion going!

 

To be honest, I don't know but apparently they have a way. Perhaps marking the car, or if your stopped and you haven't paid the congestion charge, but they also find your engine running you are in trouble.

 

AFAIK they just require the mode.

Remember London has cameras everywhere.
I have no idea about what the current/future laws are. I'm sure this is about future laws, and probably deserves its own thread.

This is about pollution monitors for cities.
Libelium | Sensor networks to monitor air pollution in cities

More than a decade we have had sensors that can from a distance determine the tail pipe emissions of individual cars. I have a danish friend that is working here now, and he often remarks how many europeans act like defeated people and will follow whatever the government tells them to do. It would be much tougher in the US. Perhaps in the most polluted cities like LA monitors could fine those cars producing the most, and give tax breaks to plug in drivers that always drive in EV mode in the most polluted parts of the city.

 

Because, if for no other reason, he likes to. He can't understand when to "let it go".

How sad!

DBCassidy

 

I disagree. I will be as hospitable and helpful as possible. This car is a "EREV" it operates 100% off of it's electric until the engine is required. It can derive it's power exclusively from the wall, and is locked out, with exception to "hold mode" however, hold mode is actually a pre-emptive range extension. It's still extending the range. It's also not deriving power, or specifically engaging the engine like the Prius does. The Prius can not operate at 100% absent of the gasoline engine. The Volt does. I think if people are really disputing whether or not it is an extended range electric vehicle AND they don't listen to the facts or the official definition, then they are "sad."

 

n/m. Drinnovation answered my question in the OP

 

<<shrug>> To me an EREV is a plug-in hybrid that has a big enough motor/battery for most pedal demands, and programming that keeps the ICE off at the expense of efficiency.

Marketing, marketing, and a smidgen of debatable engineering.

 

80 hp will propel the vehicle anywhere you want it to go, but unacceptably slow for American roads.

What about Camry hybrid? Same design, but with a more powerful electric motor.

Don't fall into the semantics hole.

 

John, I think you are in that nullification hole.
How much hp can the prius phv supply at 60mph and engine off? Its not 60kw, IIRC it is battery limited at 35kw, and it will likely drop down lower than that by 60mph. That is not full power to a highway going over 3000lb vehicle. I don't know what the cut off speed/power should be, but this is definitely not a EREV.

No problem with it not being an EREV phev, its still a blended phev. It can blend battery power during its trip with gasoline, and use less oil. They are different beasts. The battery takes up less volume and costs less allowing toyota to retain most of the prius design, but at the cost of using more gas for most users. YMMV.