2010 Prius problematic?

If the engine were shaking itself to pieces, I'd be more concerned about short term issues and so far, no regular Priuschatters who've experienced the problem have had any short term issues. For potential long term issues that could arise post warranty, I'm sure some class action lawyer will take care of you.

 

Why do you mention E85? The Prius isn't a flex-fuel vehicle and is not approved for use w/E85.

 

Well, there are plenty of us here(hundreds now) who've experienced this problematic issue, and we're finally getting impatient(not obsessed) waiting for some, any, official explanation from Toyota. My hunch(proving a point) is that if there actually had been some simple little 'fuel enrichment' explanation as you've forwarded here, Toyota would have generated a TSB a year and a half ago.

 

I've never disagreed that this phenomena doesn't exist. I've simply said that in 14 months of ownership, I have not experienced this on my G3. But I have had similar experiences on other cars I've owned...and they never resulted in anything more than a temporary annoyance.

Try Googling fuel enrichment and rough idling on cold starts. You will see that many owners of different vehicles have reported a similar issue. If you start a cold vehicle, and then turn it off early in the warm -up cycle, there's a reasonable chance that uncombusted gasoline is still inn the cylinder, so when re-started a short period latter, the car may act like cars of old, where "flooding" the carb was a common problem. The symptoms were a very rough running engine until the excess gas was burnt off. But, as I said, believe what you want.

If you are waiting for Toyota to fix an issue which is neither a safety, nor reliability problem....I expect you will have a long wait. Might I suggest you organize a protest outside of Toyota, USA with the "hundreds" of Prius owners that have this issue.

Finally, your claim that "hundreds" on this site have experienced this phenomena, doesn't seem to be substantiated by the Prius Chat survey on this issue. But I have no doubt that some have experienced this..

 

Ahh yes... I think that last comment shows your true concern over a valid issue. Incidentally, the little unscientific survey Bob Wilson conducted here showed that over 43% of participating 2010 PriusChatters experienced this problematic issue... and among the total population of 2010 Prius owners out there globally, one could probably extrapolate this figure to tens of thousands. It's just too bad this poll wasn't left open a while longer, it could have been a real mind-blower. BTW, do you think continual exposure of this problem on PriusChat.com will be as effective as demonstrating in front of Toyota HQ?

As I said in my first post, I am an 'almost' total happy camper... and if this issue is resolved with a fix or expert advice, you can add me to the column of 'totally' happy Prius campers.

 

It's not a safety or reliability issue. If I want to find something to complain about, that affects me every time I drive the car, it certainly isn't going to be a rough idle issue that only happens once or twice a year...and lasts for 30 seconds while warming up. I understand it's an issue for you. But it isn't for the vast majority of owners.

Further, you are the one who made the claim there were "hundreds (now)" on this web site with this issue.

The survey shows that 61 people have reported experiencing this phenomena, not hundreds. Most, only once. And I bet the number comes way down, if you were to have a survey asking how many are concerned about the rough idle, and not simply, how many have experienced this phenomena. As per the Google results - there are a lot of folks, with other vehicles, that have experienced something similar. As I said before - not unique to the Prius.

Really? You can make that extrapolation based on 61 people, with most of those only experiencing it once...ergo, highly irreproducible, or a non-occurrence for most. I think there are more than 50,000 registered Prius chat members. How many are G3 owners, I do not know, but have to believe thousands...so 61 respondents, out of thousands, is a very small sample size to make such an extrapolation.

But as stated, I'm sure the phenomena exists. But it's neither a safety, nor reliability issue, so, for most of us, it's not an issue... And that's especially true if we only experience it very infrequently.

You'll make the news, TV if you draw a large croud to protest. I'm not sure this site will garner any attention from Toyota,

 

30 seconds! Whoa! That would take out the engine mounts!

Sixty-one PriusChatters responded to Bob Wilson's poll but many more have posted here since that poll was closed.

I don't really care about other automobile brands, they are simply irrelevant in this discussion. The 2010 ICE with it's unique electronically-controlled operation is very different from other offerings on the market.

As I clearly stated, this was an unscientific poll and terminated well before its time. Judging from the number of people who've reported this problem since the poll was closed, I'd wager there is a developing trend here, tho.

It's not impossible to derive population trends based on small samples... and you know as well as I something is occurring here.

"Most of us"? Check out the combined thread responses regarding this issue on the various Gen 3 boards here. I believe there is substantial concern. What does this mean long term? It could mean that a meaningful segment of the 50,000 most dedicated Prius(Chat) customers could lose a little faith in their beloved Prius and their next vehicle choice may not be a Toyota.

Hmmmm.... maybe not, but I'll bet these posts garnered some attention from the Toyota reps already here on PriusChat.

 

Nope, not possible. There's far more bone rattling forces on the car every time I go over a large pot hole...and that's quite often here on the East Coast.

"Hundreds", as per your claim. Where's your proof?

Absolutely not "irrelevant".

Shows the commonality of this issue. Shows this phenomena has been around for a very long time, with many different makes, and yet, no reports of engine damage.

Sure, but in order to do that, the survey has to be well designed to be representative. As you said yourself, this was an. "unscientific" survey...and I agree.

Yes, most of us.

I doubt very few will lose faith based on this issue. If the brake issue, and the unintended acceleration issue didn't destroy faith in Toyota (only took a temporary hit)...you're delusional if you think a rough idle once a year is gonna keep people from buying a Toyota. Won't happen. But for me, even if it does, it won't affect me. I don't own Toyota stock, and Re-sale value is irrelevant for those of us that keep our cars for a long time. So, I'm not here defending Toyota. I'm simply saying this issue is a lot to do about nothing as it won't affect reliability, or safety...and I seriously doubt it will impact re-sale values. If either of the former issues were at play here, I would be concerned. But they're not...so I'm not. Concerned, that is.

 

I believe that if this becomes an issue that comes up more and more often, that it will be reproduced multiple times for a Toyota dealer, and Toyota engineers. And, if it does, then they will figure it out and fix it. The Prius is probably the signature car for Toyota, and I believe they would do most anything to keep them trouble-free, with superior customer satisfaction, so they can build and expand the model even further. Prius-type cars are the future of Toyota. And, even with their recent blip, don't forget why many of us bought Toyotas in the first place. They have always had superior vehicles, and superior dealer service. I started with a 1982 Tercel, and this is my 10th Toyota (I currently own three!). Oh, BTW, my G3 has 20K, and has been absolutely trouble-free (except for a few rattles), and a joy to drive. Never this problem.

 

Never experienced the problem when that poll was taken, and haven't experienced it since! I never shut down the car when the engine is still running, never needed too! The only easy "fix" would be to program the car not to allow you to shut it down under the cold start, short run scenario. How many complaints would we see then... 500 threads about "My Prius won't turn off!"

 

My 1998 SAAB 900SE, with 190,000 miles is also getting ready for retirement, and I now have a 2010 Prius V. The braking problems on the Prius are real, even after the firmware update. Toyota is doing nothing more about it, even though there are many complaints (including mine) to the NHTSB, dealer and Toyota Corp. "That's the way it is" is the answer. What happens is that when you are braking under about 7 miles an hour and go over rough pavement the regenerative braking cuts out suddenly, leaving only friction braking. Unless you increase pressure on the brake the car feels like it lunges ahead because of the lack of brakes. The ABS itself works as it should under normal circumstances IE the snow and ice that we have had in the Northeast. The Nav system sucks, and you would be much better off with a portable Magellan. The FM reception also is very bad, up from terrible after a swap out under a TSB. Other less troubling annoyances include a ripped drivers door weather strip (twice in the same place - weak rubber?) and an A/C failure due to a bad fitting.
If you are used to driving a SAAB, you will find the brakes on the Prius very dicey, and it has a problem getting out of it's own way - doesn't accelerate or hold the road like my SAAB, but it isn't a SAAB. In terms of reliability, the Toyota is probably more reliable than a SAAB, but not nearly up to Toyota's reputation. All I can say is the first time I brought in my SAAB (for a blown computer after 1200 miles) the woman next to me in the waiting area had as a license plate SAABSTRY.

 

I've owned my Prius since April and can say, without hesitation, that it is a joy to drive and own. It has met and surpassed every expectation. I still own a Subaru Forester and a Jeep Liberty but the Prius is, except in the deepest of snow or severe ice, my car of choice.

I have felt the braking issue on three occasions but having read about it on these boards, knew instantly what has happening and how to respond. It is not an issue is you are an aware and alert driver.

My only regret is that it does not come with a manual transmission. Sometimes I drive my Forester just so I can shift gears and depress the clutch.

I rave about the Prius to others and recommend it wholeheartedly. What a great car!

 

Sounds like there's very little you like about the car...so why do you continue to own?

Your comment, "In terms of reliability, the Toyota is probably more reliable than a SAAB..." is absolutely laughable. "Probably". You're comparing one of the least reliable brands (Saab) on the road (and especially the older one which you own) to one of the top brands, Toyota. Your lack of objectivity in this statement, makes everything else you said, highly suspect.

 

Sure, if they can reproduce, and the fix is inexpensive, then no doubt, Toyota will fix. But as I've said before, there other brands that have similar issues, and to my knowledge, no manufacturer has a fix. I suspect the reasons why include: hard to reproduce, not related to safety or reliability, and the infrequency with which it occurs...and perhaps, any possible fix would involve an expensive change to the fuel injector system.

For those who are old enough to have had a car with a carburetor, this sounds eerily like a flooded carburetor that has gotten too much gas, and when finally starts, runs rough until all the excess gas has been combusted/expelled. My guess is this is a fuel enrichment issue...and starting a cold car (especially in damp conditions), and then shortly turning the car off will sometimes create a situation that will leave too much gas in the cylinder. I'd bet if you could disable the fuel enrichment, that all fuel injected cars have, that this problem would disappear...but then you would have other starting problems...which is why the engineers added the fuel enrichment feature that takes place on cold starts.

 

Why do you keep saying it has nothing to do with reliability? You don't know that. It can't be good for the engine. It's much more likely to be bad for the engine. There's no way of knowing until we see engines fail over time. If the ones that had knocking problems wear out twice as fast, then it's definitely a reliability issue.

 

What was your previous screen name on the forum Engineer?

 

Cars have had this, or similar problem for decades....find one report that it's ever resulted in a damaged engine. Go ahead, look all you want. But of course, everything said on a "opinion" board should be prefaced with, "in my opinion". But I think history is on my side with this phenomena.

Prior to the first introduction of knock-sensors in turbo charged cars, every car was subject to occasionally knocking/ pre-detonation. And this issue only becomes problematic to the engine at high RPM's. Further, I don't believe this is a pre-detonation issue with the Prius. It's sounds more like what you would experience with fouled injectors. Try running on 3 cylinders (take the lead off to the spark plug) and see how it runs?

 

I didn't have one. What was your's?

 

Did you watch the video a few pages back? That's not normal. It can't be good for the engine. To claim it's OK because other cars have knocked in the past is ridiculous. It shouldn't knock. Period.

 

Yes, I did.

I never said it was good for the engine. What I said was, Given the frequency and operation under low RPM's, IMO, it's not going to cause a reliability issue. If this happened every time I started the car, then clearly, there is something wrong that needs correction. However, when it only happens on rare occurrences, when the car is cold, started, and then turned off before it's gone through it's warm up cycle...and finally, re-started only to run rough for 15 seconds...then, IMO, the problem is related to having excessive gas in the cylinder head that hasn't been combusted. That will cause the engine to cough and shake as per the video. Sounded a lot like what a 4 cylinder vehicle running on 3 cylinders. Doesn't sound great, but won't damage your engine. So, While disconcerting, it's not going to cause any engine reliability issues.

But here's the bottom line, and the solution you seek - don't turn the engine off (after a cold start) for 2-3 minutes. Let the system at least approach some steady state. If you do that, I doubt you will experience this phenomena, which, as I've said, many other manufacturers have the same issues, and as best I can tell, has never resulted in excessive engine wear, or premature failure.

Finally, and not trying to trivialize this issue, but the more I read posts on this site, I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that Prius owners will complain about everything and anything under the sun. My favorite from a while back was from a poster who blamed electro-magnetic emanations from his Prius, as the reason for his two collisions with deers. My point being - a lot of these complaints are founded in a basic misunderstanding of how cars work, or how the Prius is suppose to work. Not all complaints fall into this category, but some do. I realize the rough idle issue is real (folks aren't making it up), but I think a basic understanding of the engine would convince you that this will not result in future reliability issues. If it happens every day, then I'm sure Toyota technicians can diagnose a more serious problem.