2010 Model disappointing to me

Where'd you pull that $56k from? A 2009 loaded Prius is $29.x k. Yeah, loaded 2010 is going to be $56k , uh huh, right.

Why don't you just convert your 04 to a PHEV?

You expect Toyota to mass release PHEV's when batteries are not fully tested?

And who else has a PHEV OEM car on the market?

Good luck with that Volt. What background does it bring to date?

 

I agree with this. But that does not mean you have to commit to GM's vaporware.

Interesting. I'm still not convinced the Volt will be built.

Actually, the vast majority of Prius owners are not represented here on PC, and could not care less about a PHEV or EV. The vast majority of Prius owners just see it as a reliable Japanese car that burns less gas.

Why are you surprised at me? I am driving a full EV now. It's my primary car and my daily driver. I could not buy an EV-1 because I didn't live in CA (and still don't).

As others have pointed out, the major obstacle to EVs and PHEVs today is the Cobasys (sp?) patent and the cost of alternative batteries. The patent issue is an example of how private ownership often works against public interest, even national security interest, since in this case it forces us to fund terrorism. The cost of batteries is an example of shortsighted government, since a large-scale program of research into sustainable energy and battery technology would do more to undercut al Queda than the war can ever hope to do, and energy independence would bolster the economy, whereas military spending has bankrupted us.

 

Folks,

You all have to remember we're dealing with Toyota, a company not well-known for doing something really adventurous when it comes to car styling for the most part.

The second-generation Prius was actually considered extremely radical by Toyota standards, and as such we haven't seen some unusually-styled vehicle from Toyota in quite a while (people forget that the highly boxy design of the original Toyota bB/Scion xB is actually quite common among Japanese cars). That's why the 2010 Prius is more an evolved design using the same layout as the second-generation model.

In fact, the new Toyota iQ hatchback is probably the first really "adventurous" design from Toyota for a production vehicle in quite some years.

 

I was surprised at your flippant response to someone expressing frustration that a PHEV or EV is not available from a major manufacturer. You have expressed similar frustration many times here on PriusChat. EV's are always 2 years away.

I'm aware that you drive a Xebra as you primary vehicle. It is classified as a motorcycle and does not meet safety standards for automobiles. You have also been clear that while it works for you it may not work for the majority of people.

It would not work for my wife since she drives a 2 lane state highway with a 45 mph speed limit though traffic routinely moves at 55 mph. There is no alternative route as my suburb only has 3 routes out of town and none of the subdivisions connect. Instead they all feed into these three routes.

 

Your member name matches the US Air flight 1549, is it a coincident or prediction?

 

The fact that it takes 2 weeks longer to ship a car from Japan than from Tupelo shouldn't make 'flexible manufacturing to request' more expensive/difficult in Japan or cheaper/easier in Tupelo.

I'm sure Toyota's "life" is a lot easier with the "Take it or leave it, I don't care" production method. Obviously the first 2004s built had to be 'guess what the buyers will want' since they had NO idea how well the redesigned car would be received. Once there was a wait list, they COULD have changed that 'manufacturing model' to allow people to get THE package they wanted, in the COLOR they wanted without having to wait until one happened to show up at the dealer(s) where they had put down deposits.

I'm not suggesting that Toyota offer a base 2010 car and let people order EXACTLY the additional features they want. But for the big ticket items, barring technical "can't be done together" issues, people should be able to choose what they want AND can afford.

Toyota could put out pricing for the packages they expect to offer and request input from potential buyers. Once people see what they have to choose from, Toyota might find out that fewer or more people want some feature than they 'guessed', especially considering the price.

What if the solar venting / sun roof combination adds $1,750 to the next lower package? And what if that 'next lower' package cost $500 more than the one below and adds only the 'keep in lane' feature so you have to get all three to get the sun roof or solar vent. What if the solar venting and sun roof were separately available for $1K each on ANY car? If they find out that 95% will buy both anyway, only offer them together. If, instead, 60% want one OR the other, and only 30% wanted 'keep in lane' they might make more money (and have happier customers) if they were offered separately since some people will forgo the thing they want due to the extra cost of what they do NOT want. If you REALLY want a sun roof, maybe you will pay the $1K but not the extra $2,250.

 

I'm not sure which of my posts you were referring to, but if it was my reply to Mitch, my point was not his frustration, but his declaration that because the 2010 Prius is not plug-in, he would buy a Chevy Volt. I thought the more reasonable response would have been to say that he'd buy the first PHEV (or EV) that became available, rather than declaring for a company that in my opinion will be the last to build either.

As for the Xebra, it will not meet many peoples' needs, but I believe that it can meet the needs of many who dismiss it out of hand. That said, I'll sell mine as soon as I can get a better EV.

 

Once again, lets remember we have no idea what the final packages will be. We only know what the 3 special pre-order packages will be. As I recall when the special pre-orders for the 2004 happened, there were only 3 packages as well. For the general release there were 9 different packages available with various combinations of the 7 optional features. Until Toyota announces the final packages and prices, all we can do is speculate. Lets just not forget that it is just speculation.

Rob

 

Re: 2010 Model disappointing to me TOO

Professional reviewers tend to love over powered cars.

You bet I do. And I have no problem. The fact that you say it is starved for power UNLESS you floor it suggests that it does IN FACT have adequate power. Flooring it means "give me all you've got". 'Adequate power' means "can do what needs to be done WHEN it needs to be done". Why do we need to get 'adequate power' for the 'extreme' situation at less than full throttle? If a vehicle is mostly driven up hills that require it to run above the 'fuel efficient' RPM range, then yes, it needs more. My 1995 Odyssey (0-60 in 13+ seconds) had 'adequate power' even though I had to downshift (automatic) on one steep hill on the Interstate with the van full. Didn't need to with just the wife & kids (~500 pounds) in the car, only the RARE occasions when we added the extra 300 pounds of 2 more adults. Same hill in the Prius with 4 adults plus luggage (650+ pounds), NO PROBLEM.

Except that the Corolla doesn't have a high torque at low RPM electric motor. A straight max HP/weight ratio is not comparable.

TODAY. Look how many hopped on the Prius bandwagon when it was consistently over $3 and hit $4. And don't think that $1.99 gas will be in your long term future. I agree the AVERAGE American doesn't care, but s/he better start thinking how their habits and 'needs' drive costs (both economic and political) and pollution. AND it really doesn't matter if it costs $2 or $6, the more we burn, the longer we will remain mired in the 'foreign oil' political and economic tar pit.

Again with the "more than adequate". Call it what it is: "excessive".

 

Ah, different answer.

I wouldn't expect Toyota to take an existing 2010 off the road and convert it. I read the prior responses to mean that the 2010 design was not a direct step toward PHEV. If they can add PHEV to all the technical improvements in the 2010 (PSD, body, etc) WHEN the battery tech is viable, 'simply' by replacing the batteries, adding the charging port and modifying charging/EV programming in a NEW model year, rather than have to design a whole new PHEV car - THAT is what I was expecting. Of course if the battery tech doesn't happen for 5 years, I also would not expect the 2015 Prius to be unchanged from 2010.

 

Except that the packages were linear. Pkg 2 added to pkg1, pkg3 added to pkg2, etc. If you wanted NAV, you bought the highest package. More recent package did group things somewhat differently.

 

Nearly all the vehicles that any maker builds are 'spec' vehicles. They have no exact idea at the time of building which ones will sell or not. From marketing studies they do have a 'feel' but that's no guarantee as proven by the current Gen 4Runner when it was first released.

They have to build several boatloads full of Prius' in order to fill the production pipeline and secure parts from the various suppliers. When the first vehicles arrive here in June they will have already committed to suppliers to buy a certain number of parts for the vehicles that will be sold in Sept.

These boatloads of Prius' arrive at Long Beach, NY and Jacksonville unsold and unallocated. The unsold vehicles are then divided amongst the retail outlets based on past selling performance. It's only then that the stores know for sure what they will get. All the vehicles made in Japan are like that in Toyota's system.

The number of firm orders specifying certain features is miniscule normally, 1 out of 1000 maybe. They have to fill this pipeline with 'spec' vehicles. Thus they must make decisions well before anyone visits a store to place an order. Now the Prius in its life has been an anomoly since for most of it's Gen 2 life it's been in short supply. But right now it is not.

But the composition of the packages is never set in stone. Like the first months of this Gen 4Runner if they find that they made a mistake...SNAP...they change it immediately. That good marketing also.

 

With reference to power and hills, as in some posts above: Perception of power is relative. Some folks apparently get an almost sexual thrill from the acceleration of a muscle car. But in downtown Spokane there is one hill that is comparable to San Francisco (Monroe Street, going up to the South Hill district) and my 2004 Prius easily takes that hill at the 35 mph speed limit. I am not flooring the pedal when I take that hill, so the car could go up that hill faster if the law allowed.

(FWIW, my Xebra has a hard time on that hill, and because the street has a lot of traffic, I take a different --less steep-- street when I'm driving it.)

The 2004 Prius has plenty of power for a family sedan, and more than some common family cars. Now, if you plan on drag racing, the Prius is not your best choice.

 

So, here is Toyota directly telling a lie. The first part of the lie, is that the 2010 will not be upgradable to be an PHEV (which they said in the new 2010 product announcement), yet in this announcement, they publicy state that the new Prius was designed and engineered to be packaged with either Lithium-ion Polymer with plug-in capability, or the nickel-metal hydride battery for standard hybrid use.

Yes, these are test vehicles testing the new Lion battery technology, we understand that Toyota, don't lie to us and tell us it's not possible, when it clearly is.

Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc. :: Toyota Maintains Pace, Broadens Scope of Advanced Environmental Technologies

and I quote:

"The first-generation lithium-ion batteries powering these PHVs will be built on an assembly line at Toyota's PEVE (Panasonic EV Energy Company, LTD) battery plant, a joint-venture production facility in which Toyota owns 60 percent equity. During its development, the new Prius was designed and engineered to package either the lithium-ion battery pack with plug-in capability, or the nickel-metal hydride battery for the conventional gas-electric system."

Mitch

 

But it's not a lie, if they never plan to offer an upgrade package to those that buy a non-PHEV model.

What will be interesting is how much work would be necessary to retrofit a PHEV setup from a boneyard car to a non-PHEV car. But that's not something that Toyota will, or should, concern themselves with.

I'm hoping it will just be a few hours of work to swap the battery setup, another few hours of bodywork to add the charging port (in the stock spot, using the stock "gas door"), and no other changes (not having to swap ECUs and half the wiring harnesses).

 

I would be surprised if it wasn't just a battery pack changeout, modifications needed for the plug in charging port, and possibly an ECU module changeout. They could make a retrofit kit availble for 3rd party or dealer installation.

If they don't offer such a kit, I'm sure the aftermarket will come up with one, especially A123/Hymotion, and all of the other mfrs currently offering kits for the 2nd gen 2004-2009 Prius.

I also think they would sell more 2010's, if they stopped saying it will be not be offered, of course it will be, maybe not by them, but certainly by third parties.

mitch

 

Exactly. Here's an analogy. The Gen2 Prius is designed to support a navigation system. Those who have tried to retrofit a factory NAV system into a Prius that didn't come with one have discovered its a huge pain in the @ss due to the large number of components and wiring that has to be changed. A few people have pulled it off. I would be surprised if you found any dealer who would do it for you. I would be shocked if Toyota offered a NAV upgrade for people who ordered cars w/o NAV. I know of 1 3rd party garage that would probably install it for you, but they wouldn't recommend it and it would cost a lot.

There's really no way to know how easy or hard it will be to upgrade an '09 to factory PHEV until we get our hands on both and someone figures it out. It could be as trivial as swapping out the battery. It could be as complicated as a new transaxle, HV controller, ECU, engine, battery, battery controller, HV wiring harness, and LV wiring harness.

When Toyota says they aren't planning to offer a retrofit, I believe them. They are a for profit business, and they want to sell you a new car with newer better features. Thats what car companies do. When Chevy updated the Malibu 4cyl to a 6sp auto mid year (for no extra cost) to improve mileage ratings, I don't remember them offering everyone who bought a 4sp auto in the preceding months an upgrade.

Rob

 

I don't think it would be good marketing to let people think it CAN be converted to a PHEV until some company actually comes up with a product. There would be a LOT of bad press if people buy a 2010 expecting to convert it but there is no kit for 2 or 3 years. Now if Hymotion or some other company were to get in bed with Toyota so they could get the specs and design a product with a probable price range, THEN Toyota MIGHT advertise the conversion possibility.

 

Hi Bruce,

I thought it was as miscrms described it, i.e., the 2004 Prius had 9 option packages with various combinations of the different individual option items.

For example, you would have side and curtain airbags as Package #2, but they were not included in Package #4 or Package #8. See 2004 eBrochure:

http://www.toyotacertified.com/ebrochures/04_prius.pdf

And it was only in the later model years (beginning with the 2007 model year) that the option packages were linear and cumulative. See 2007 eBrochure:

http://www.toyotacertified.com/ebrochures/07_prius.pdf

 

My take: Disappointed

What I Like:
-Better mileage.
-LED headlamps (I just like LEDs in general).
-Solar panel keeps the car cool when parked.
-Speed control radar.
-Touch Tracer. I'll reserve judgement on the new hybrid display until I see one or get a better description on line.
-EV switch (Yes!).
-Auto up/down on all windows.
-Telescoping steering wheel (assuming I can bring it closer and not just farther away than my 2008)
-No bladder

Wish List:
-Plug in hybrid. This is definitly a deal breaker. I see no compelling reason to buy a new Prius without it.
-Solar panel charges the battery.

What I Don't Like:
-Moving the instrument panel to the center. This may be a deal breaker for me. I want my speedo right in front of me. I really don't understand this trend to move things to the center. I want to see it in person.
-Traditional shift lever (why?)
-New console. Too confining (it looks like). Eliminates the space in front of the center console where both my wife and I put things. Where is the little drawer we use for a trash bin?
-New front end design. This looks like it might be popular in Japan or Europe. I think the 2008 is much better looking without the bump for the Toyota emblem. I think it makes the car look smaller and to me silly looking.

What I don't care about one way or the other:
-Sun roof.
-GPS. (I use Garmin Nuvi)
-Collision warning system.
-Vertical adjust on driver's seat.
- Backup camera - I find it minimally useful.

Bottom line: I see no reason to trade my 2008 for a 2010. This looks like an evolution not a revolution. The What I Like list isn't enough to buy one and the What I Don't Like is a strong deterrent.