2005 Tax deduction

You spoke of God... he too is a man of war!... he also says "cursed is the man who keeps his sword from battle"

Without war, you have no peace.... unless you live with Alice in wonderland... it has never happened before in all of history....and it will never happen in the future until evil nature has been removed.

Hopeful wishing does not change reality.

Because of todays wars, there is hope that your grandchildren may live in peace!

You obviously are a peacemaker, and thats a good thing.... but you are no good when they will not hear peace and so there must be war.

No one in their right mind likes war... its very ugly and cruel.

If all we had was people like you in the whole world, then yes we would have peace... but if we only had people like you in this country, then we would be overun and destroyed.

We are no more civil today than we were thousands of years ago.. we just do it with different methods.. until our evil nature has been removed, you can wish all you want..... evil does not respect right and wrong, nor your boundaries, nor does it respect whats decent and proper.

You do not fight against evil with peace... that is a contradiction of elements... they do not mix.

 

Saddam had it coming to him. Definitely. And he got what he deserved.

But the 100,000 innocent Iraqis killed in this war DID NOT deserve it and DID NOT have it coming to them. Is it now the Christian thing to do to kill 100,000 innocent people in order to arrest and put on trial one criminal?

And note, please, that roughly half the most brutal undemocratic tyrants in the world receive full diplomatic, financial, and military support from the same U.S. government that insists it had to "take out" Saddam for being brutal and undemocratic. And note also, that Saddam had no weapons of mass destruction (the supposed reason for the invasion) and had nothing to do with 9/11 and in fact was one of al Queda's most determined enemies!

I wonder if one of the several real reasons for attacking Iraq might have been to divert attention from the undemocratic and tyrannical Saudi royal family. Most of the 9/11 hijackers and their financing came from Saudi Arabia. But the Saudi royal family are bosom pals of Mr. Bush, so he couldn't very well attack them! (They bankrolled his several failed attempts to become an oil man himself.)

And note, finally, that due to the incompetence of the people running our military, we are losing this war.

 

I'm not sure if we have the same genius running the war that ran the hurricaine crisis, but I hope not!....Its really hard to have war without the innocent getting involved, especially when the enemy goes out of their way to hide in synogogues, homes, neighborhoods... but thats the game of terrorists......
The only consolation I can see is that Saddam would have killed much more innocent anyway.. at least now there is an end to his terror...and the people of Iraq appear to be very grateful..... but who knows whats its really like over there.... the media sure taints things too much and holds back politically sensitive info that can be pro war or otherwise.... they play games with what will get the most attention.

We all know there was not just one criminal, but a whole regeime of terrorist family..... gangsters of sort.

War always sucks and we hate to pay the price.... I still remember Vietnam.....

And I often wonder if the reason the military has so much struggling in Iraq is because we are so half hearted about supporting them. I hear alot or reports from the Generals that they don't have the support they need to do thier job.
It seems the place over there is is constant chaos? You would certainly think we could kick nice person and take names and be done with it... but we are actually fighting "several" countries on the turf of Iraq... they just keep pouring in!

The good part about it that I try to see is that I would rather the terrorist come to battle and get rid of them now, rather than have them lay low and wait for us to leave and then come forth later on our grounds.
They are so stupid!... If they would just lay low, we would leave and would not come back, but they keep pouring in!

I just wish the American people would count the cost of war before going to war and not whimp out once the price of lives start pouring in!
We are so spoiled, we think we can go and say "boo!"and flex our muscles and everybody will go running! We forgot what war was all about! We made the same mistake in Vietnam. And came back with our tail between our legs because the price was too high.
We should not go to war unless we count the cost, but once we go, we cannot come back in a week crying to our mommy because we got hurt.

War sucks... it always has. I think we have done a poor job of gathering the worlds interest in stamping out terroism.... but now they all are getting a taste!
Look at France!... they were under the sheets with Saddam and wanted to protect him!.. look at Russia!, they supplied his weapons... but now they all are getting a taste of terror!

Even if we did go after the wrong man, we didn't go after the wrong cause!
Saddam is just one pawn... well maybe not a pawn.. more like a knight on the chess board. But he is not the King.

If your going to pick on a bully, you better do it to the death or you'll not only fight him again under his terms but you'll fight all his friends as they will deem you as easy prey. Until Iraq, we had earned the reputation of being fat and soft sissys afraid of everything. They honestly thought we would run from a fight. You do that with terrorist, and you'll have them all at your doorstep next.

 

This reminds me of the joke about the general who says to his troops: "Boys, some of you will die today, but it's a price I'm willing to pay." In this case, I hear you saying that it's really bad that innocent women and children have to die, but it's a price you're willing to pay.

Both the above assertions are part of the Bush party line, but both are hotly disputed. The vast majority of Saddam's victims died while the U.S. was supporting him. But the chaos that the war brought is killing people at ten times the rate. As for "support," most of the resistance to American occupation are Iraqis who are disgusted with the way our military is conducting this war. People who were delighted that we got rid of Saddam, are now asking what the bleep we are still doing there, and why we are killing people so indiscriminately.

Sigh! This tired old line, "support the troops" is nothing but a code for "support the government that sends the troops to be killed." Those generals, by the way, are complaining that the government is not giving them the equipment they need, such as sufficient drinking water and body armor.

As mentioned above, the majority of the resistance are Iraqi citizens, opposed to a foreign military occupation of their country, just as you would be opposed to a foreign military occupation of your country.

You speak as though there were a fixed number of "terrorists" and if you could just kill them all then the world would be safe. You also seem to use the word "terrorist' to describe Iraqi citizens fighting against a foreign military occupation.

But the sad truth is that every time you drop a bomb that kills a child, you make a lifetime enemy of that child's parents. They will hate you forever, and given the chance they will fight you and try to kill you, because you killed their child. Now, drop a dozen bombs on their city to kill them (now that you've made "terrorists" of them) and those bombs will kill another hundred kids, and you've made enemies of all their parents. Now you can label them "terrorists" and it goes on forever.

War has no winners. War just multiplies exponentially the number of people who hate you and will do anything they can to seek revenge.

The entire world supported our invasion of Afghanistan, because the Taliban were clearly complicit in 9/11. The entire world opposed our invasion of Iraq, because Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, and the rest of the world sees this war as nothing but a war of conquest for oil. Sure, you can insult the rest of the world for not supporting us, but a wise man listens to his friends, and our friends were telling us to wait for the U.N. inspectors to do their job. Of course, Bush could not wait for the inspectors, because he knew they'd find NO WMDs, and then he'd have no excuse for his war.

I just wish our government would realize that the cost of war is unacceptable. But of course, for Bush, the price is perfectly acceptable. Any number of Americans and Iraqis killed is perfectly acceptable to Bush, because he's not only a moron, he's a megalomaniac.

 

Everyone that joined the armed forces did it without a draft and no one made them, they were willing to fight for freedom because they believed in protecting their loves ones. The ones that went to get a free education and job without giving anything for it deserves whatever they get!

Do you really think if we pull out now it will be doing them any favors? Everything we did will be lost and worse, they will be overthrown by terrorist at will.
Have you no sense of moral obligation to what we have initiated?... your the one preaching about the women, children, and the innocent... what will become of them?

If you were governed by Saddam for decades, you wouldn't welcome liberators?

Would you want them to leave before we could defend ourselves from the very kind that we were just liberated from?

Evil men are never "fixed" any more than the criminals that run to and fro in our streets are fixed. The only thing "at all" that limits thier numbers is them knowing they have boundaries they cannot cross.

They have to know it is more benificial for them to be law abiding citizens than it is to be evil.

Have you not seen what "law abiding citizens" do when all law is removed?... think about the riots of LA and even New Orleans!
Did those poeple just get "evil" overnight?... no!.. they were evil all along, but their nature was held at bay and in check with laws that carry repercussions.

I disagree, War makes your enemies and all who are like them beware lest they too reap the rewards of misconduct!
If you take out a bad guy early, you won't have to fight a whole generation of them later!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What is your plan to deal with men who rain down terror and fear and rule your lives because of what they may take away from you if you don't conform to their control and slavery?
Do you condone blackmail, kidnapping, bombing the innocent? If not, how do you propose to control and stop them? Invite them to dinner?
Do you even believe in a Police Force?
If so, then why don't you believe in it for the whole country?
Don't you think police get shot at and are killed, yet that is a price you are willing to pay?

How ever they see it, The least that the country of Iraq should do is compensate us for our expenses to save them. We don't need a profit, just compensation!.. why should we go in debt for them, if they have a way to pay us?

The rest of the world was pussy whipped into fear and allowing whatever they wanted irregardless of the moral implications.
True there are many other injustices going on in the world, but they have not attacked us yet!... only terroism in general.. thats our enemy!.... not Iraq!
Iraq just happened to be the place where we are fighting the war instead of here!

The United Nations was at the top of the list of fools!
They acted as neutered guest wined and dined buy the very one they were to investigate? The united nations are evil and vulnerable to brides and pursuasion... they are power without morals.

The world is going to be very embarrassed if we ever find WMD's... they had months to hide them in countless underground mazes and/or destroy them.
When you investigate someone, you don't warn them and give them advance notice to hide everything before you come?
Only a fool would get caught in that senario.

We waited on everyone we deemed as credible. Why should be wait for approval from entites that are in bed with him and have interest to loose if we took him out? entites who supply them weapons and who economy is supported by him?

We had much support. And that support came in the heat of "no support" from other countries such as France, Russia etc....
A country always has to count the cost when picking sides, and many picked our side!

War is war, how can you say it is unacceptable? Where would you be today without war? and who would be abusing you for thier own amusement and selfish gains?
that line is where we differ.

By not choosing "like we did for 20 years", that is a choice! We are choosing to put up with and tolerate and allow..... and finally go to bed with.

 

Can you two get a room already? Can't you see that you love each other? :wub: It's clear as the nose on your face...maybe exchange e-mail addresses so everytime I recheck new posts, this thread is not at the top of the list!

 

Thanks windstrings. I agree with alot of what you have said. But I still believe we pissed away ten, hundreds of billions of dollars by invading Iraq. Money that could have been spent on defense and a better offence.

Oops, got sidetracked. I thanked you above because now I think I'm beginning to understand the mentality of the current White House. B)

 

Beat me to it. I was about to suggest that they take their fight outside

 

Your right... that was definately alot of stinkin money!...
Thats another thing I was just a bit suspicous of..... it wouldn't be the first time we bailed out our recessive economy by going to war and spending money we didn't have!

 

I don't care much if the discussion is popular or the hottest topic... Its just good discussion that all of us war with inside.....

And I take nothing personal against anyone I have verbal stuggles with.... in fact a week from now, I won't even remember who it was, unless it becomes a habit.
I don't carry grudges and I speak against ideas, not people personally.

Everyone has a right to feel the way they feel and I trust if I lived all my life in thier shoes, I quite possibly would feel the same as they!
We all see the world through different eyes, and we all are responsible for the present level of revelation we walk in.
Some only see as far as thier own values.. . its hard to see the big picture when we care little about the big picture.


and haven't you noticed.... we already did take it "outside"....

did you notice this thread has been moved to Fred's house of pancakes! :lol: :lol:

 

I'm too lazy to reply point by point. I will limit myself to this one item, to explain why the Iraqis do not welcome us as "liberators":

The big difference between a police force and an occupying military force:

A police force (when it works right) regards itself as part of the community it protects. A policeman (a good one) will risk his or her own life without risking the lives of members of the community. He or she will shoot ONLY when there is a clear, individual target and no innocent people are in the line of fire, and even then will use the minimum force that can achieve the goal, resorting to deadly force as an absolute last resort.

An occupying military force regards itself as besieged by the community it occupies. It puts its own safety ahead of the safety of civilians and will drop a bomb on a house full of children if it has reason to believe that there is probably an enemy combatant inside. It de-humanizes its enemy by applying words like "terrorist" to anyone who resists the occupation. The 9/11 hijackers were terrorists. The Iraqi citizens fighting to liberate their country from its "liberators" are not terrorists unless they employ terrorist means, and there are very few doing that. Most of the resistance are not terrorists. But an occupying military force does not make those sorts of distinctions.

By placing itself above the people it claims to be protecting, an occupying force loses any legitimate claim to be protecting anybody but itself.

And by indiscriminately killing innocent people along with combatants, the occupying military loses what support it had at the beginning, and makes itself the enemy of the people it claims to have liberated.

And that's why the Iraqi people no longer support the occupation of their country. Plus, the Iraqis know that the only reason the U.S. is there is for the oil. With dozens of tyrants murdering their people in the world (many with U.S. weapons and training) why is it that we only invade the ones with oil, and then only when they won't produce and market it in just the way our government wants them to?

 

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong!

I have dozens of friends and even some family who are or were over there. My wife's cousin was even caught in a roadside IED attack. Luckily he's fine, only some minor shrapnel wounds, and he's home now, but the guys in the Hummer in front of him were not so lucky.

Straight from the horses mouth: They go through great pains NOT to shoot or bomb anywhere near civilians. There have been times where they have been under fire and have NOT fired back simply becuse there were civilians near. American lives have been lost becuase they have orders not to shoot back if there are innocent civilians nearby. They do NOT kill indiscriminately. I get this from both the guys I know who are over there on the ground getting shot at, and from some of the brass I know over at CENTCOM here in Tampa.

It's obvious that the only information you get is from cable news, otherwise you would know what it's really like over there. Many Iraqis still support and like the troops. Yes, there are those who are tired of the US presence, but that is to be expected. My friends tell me how they still get along great with the people they liberated. Yes it's bad, but if you get all your info from the media, you are seriously uninformed.

 

Especially FOX news. I try to mix mine up. However, EVERY media outlet has its own spin. And every military organization has its own spin. You've got to look at the numbers... lots of civilians have died and many soldiers have died (just because they volunteered doesn't make it any better) and that's a lot of heartbreak for those left behind.

I know one soldier and one Lt. Col. that have been over there. The Lt. Col says we do all that we can to spare civilian causalities (he did say that they couldn't find any WMD's... and he was assigned to thta unit). The soldier sings a different tune.

May the living stay safe!

 

The numbers in this thread are "funny" (meaning "strange" or "unusual", but certainly not humorous). There is no responsible organization saying that 100,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed in the 3 years of this war and occupation. The real number is still a very high one, approaching 25,000 last time I took a look. That includes all Iraqis killed, including the ones killed by the terrorists, insurgents and native extremists. IIRC, the majority have been killed not in the invasion, but in the fighting by what the press calls the "insurgents". The bastards hide behind their own civilians, or in religious buildings, hoping to leverage our higher standards against us.

But the violence is winding down, not up. I notice the critics don't even mention the election, with more people participating on a percentage basis than did in our last election. One third of our troops will be home soon. The political process is working now. But some people desparately want us to fail for political reasons of thier own. They don't realize that before Saddam, Iraq was a westernized country. They have not had an Islamic Revolution like Iran did. Democracy may just work there.

Occupation of a country and conversion of its system takes time. We were in Germany for 40 years, and in the beginning, it didn't look like anything was salvageable. In Japan, our occupation was considered ineffective at first by critics. We were there for many years.

A single life lost is a horrible tragedy, affecting others in an ever widening circle, like the rings that spread out from a pebble dropped in a pond. It is wrong to minimize the loss experienced by families and friends when one of our soldiers dies. My father fought in the Battle of the Bulge, and the day we started winning that battle, the second day, we lost over 20,000 men. A single day ... and that's when the victory started.

Was it worth it? Those 20,000+ helped stop the slaughter months later that had already killed 6 million civilians, so on a purely statistical basis, yes, it was worth it. But today I doubt that we would continue. We would pull out, as the loss of life was too great.

I wonder if the critics today will become silent about Bush, just as they are now about Reagan. The same criticisms were leveled at him for his "insane" treatment of the Soviet Union. He was "stupid", the "dumbell President", who was obstinate and ignorant of the world. But he was also right, and so now his former critics praise his accomplishments, or at least remain silent. If democracy takes root in Iraq, expect the focus to shift to "healthcare" or some other "crisis".

 

I've always felt rich - even when I lived in my '73 Chevy van. I could always feed myself and my dog... and was always warm.

Now, I'm wonderfully rich on my under $90K salary. I've paid cash for all of my cars since 1988 (except for the Prius... but I was almost there!) with money I've saved over the years. My wife and kid enjoy everything they'd ever need.

DO we buy a bunch of electronics? Hell no! Our old TV had to die before we replaced it. My child was raised to know that "stuff" isn't the important thing in life and she works for almost all of the music she owns.

Mostly, I'm rich because of my loving family and friends (including my furry ones!).

It's good to be alive and live where we live!!

 

I see them as different too with different roles, but they are in power for the same reasons. The reasons they must exist are the same and why they have to live by the gun to accomplish thier purpose and be effective is my point.
The Military is very similiar. Police are not supposed to attack unprevoked, but yet are supposed to arrest crime and stamp it out. The Military is the police for the nation, the police are the police for the local community.

 

I'm tired of this thread. I stand by the points I made.

Carry on, gentlemen.

 

Withdrawal from thread noted.........

 

yep... this is the only life they know.. this is what has been modeled to the terrorists by thier superiors for decades, thier role models, thier leaders, even thier fathers! The tactics they live by have been taught for generations.... They literally know no better, but that doesn't mean its ok to let that way of life flourish.

We have definately bitten off a big chunck in doing what we have done. We are attempting to not only stamp out the forces that drive thier bondage, but also to bring them another way of life that they are unfamiliar with. Freedom is refreshing when you have never had it before but somehow you still know "its right"... somehow deep in your spirit you know how to fly... just like a bird that has always been in captivity released from its cage.

Exactly!.. but the difference is that we were cornered into a corner and did decisions based out of pure survival.
9-11 brought the same fear "temporarily", but was soon faded as the reality as we know it in every day life had no real reflections of terror and danger. We were lulled back to sleep and became resentful of continuing to pay a price that "just maybe was not necessary!"
We get mad at the government for waiting till a crisis hits before they prepare for it.... oh when it hits.. we want to point fingers a those idiots for not doing thier job, but we won't support them when they try?
This president is really trying to prepare us for thier next move! and their are tons of skeptics and critics!.... I agree, later he will be praised.

Most great men were not recongnized in thier time. I'm not saying Pres. Bush is a great man, but he is being used for greatness and he is trying to yield to it!.. big difference!

.
I agree, when we are fat and comfortable, we have little concern for others... only to protect our own skin like a poor whinny sissy boy.

I really appreciate your post fshagan,.... it does get frustrating when few are willing to comment in a tense discussion.. even though they have convictions they are afraid to express, and you feel like a lone coon on a log with a bunch of hounds trying to get at you! :lol:
I am thankful that we alone are not in control of our destiny... only time will tell who will be seen as heros and who as fools.

But I will say this and it may piss alot of people off.. but here goes....
Most people who don't have a clue about making decisions about how to lead the country, also are not able to lead thier own families.
If you don't understand the principles that make your own family work, you also will not be able to lead a country, or a company for that matter.

Ok out there, I'm ducking now.. go ahead and throw!