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10 positive things to do for the environment

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by icarus, Jan 21, 2010.

  1. patsparks

    patsparks An Aussie perspective

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    Oh, you mean short sighted like burn all the fossil fuel now and f*** future generations? OK, got ya.
     
  2. patsparks

    patsparks An Aussie perspective

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    Sorry, ignorant Aussie here.

    What is the difference between a heated mattress pad and an electric blanket?
    I have a DeLonghi padded electric blanket with remote control and timer, is that what a heated mattress pad is?

     
  3. chogan2

    chogan2 Senior Member

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    Mattress pad goes under the bottom sheet and attaches to the mattress. An advantage is that you needn't have a (relatively bulky) electric blanket on top of you. Also good for restless sleepers who may toss off the bedclothes at night. Same concept as an electric blanket, just under rather than over the sleeper. Here's a picture:

    Costco - Plush Velour Electric Heated Mattress Pads
     
  4. richard schumacher

    richard schumacher shortbus driver

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    When the option is available most householders can get the biggest bang for their buck by contracting with their electric utility for 100% non-fossil electricity. In the US, where on average about 50% of electricity comes from coal, a household that uses 10,000 kW-hours per year would reduce its fossil CO2 emissions by about 5,000 lbs per year by switching to non-fossil power. That's as much CO2 as is created by burning 250 gallons of gasoline, enough to drive a Prius 12,000 miles.
     
  5. chogan2

    chogan2 Senior Member

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    I'll ditto that, with some reservations.

    I think it's more beneficial than you suggest, with a US average of about 1.35 lbs C02/KWH nationally, per page 1 of this somewhat old DOE doc:

    http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/page/co2_report/co2emiss.pdf

    But I have a deeper issue.

    I did that with Virginia Power, when they offered the option (they no longer offer it to residential customers). I bought my electricity from a wind farm in PA.

    And yet, I wondered about the true additionality of that. I understand the contract issues -- that my money flows through my utility to (in my case, a wind farm in PA), I purchase the electricity that PA wind farm puts onto the grid, and even though my electrons are not green, the economic effect is the same as if I had a direct line to that provider.

    So I was definitely supporting wind power and definitely helping them to be profitable by paying a premium rate for their output. Probably, I should just stop thinking right there.

    But if I didn't pay a premium rate for their power (or, more accurately, if nobody like me paid a premium rate for their power), would they stop selling it and/or would they not have been able to get in the business in the first place and/or would that prevent them from opening their next turbine. (That is, would that have any effect on current and future production of wind power.) That's the additionality test.

    That's really what matters, and that's impossible to say for sure. Unlike solar cells, where, unless there's an absolute, permanent shortage of cells, you know that your decision to install them results in substitution of renewable for fossil-fuel energy, .... it just seems somewhat fuzzier to me when you're paying a premium to some remote supplier.

    On the other hand, that's impossible to say for virtually all mass-produced products.

    When all was said and done, I convinced myself that it probably had additionality. At least that's what I want to believe, in some long-run (industry profitability) sense. But I still have these nagging doubts.

    I'd much rather buy green power from somebody who is willing to produce that professionally and sell it to me, than to produce it myself. But I no longer have the option in Virginia.
     
  6. richard schumacher

    richard schumacher shortbus driver

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    Hmm. Similarly, if we had not bought Priuses would some one else have done?

    Perhaps the very best return-on-investment for the individual is to buy paper, envelopes, and stamps, and write to their representatives in support of a fossil carbon tax or cap-and-trade system to hasten the transition to non-fossil power.
     
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  7. chogan2

    chogan2 Senior Member

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    Yeah, I maybe over-thinking this one.
     
  8. radioprius1

    radioprius1 Climate Conspirisist

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    Dear Icarus

    1. Don't be a hypocrite. You love to post the ridiculous "consensus position" poll for climate scientists, but you get upset when someone posts a poll showing something against your ideaological views.

    2. Is it more inane than arguing that adding heat (energy) to water makes it form ice? Or more inane than advocating the death of 700,000 people to help the environment?

    3. That is a completely incorrect use of "beg the question." You should read this: Beg The Question // Get it right.

    Thank you, have a good day.
    RP1
     
  9. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    Once again after asking you multiple times that if you don't have anything positive to contribute to this thread, if you could please confine your thoughts either to yourself or to appropriate threads.

    Since you feel a need to hijack every thread you possibly can, I have asked the mods to please remove your previous post, as it is neither positive nor substantive.

    So I will ask once more nicely; If you have nothing of a positive nature to contribute to this thread I would ask you to please respect the intentions of this thread,,, that is to make positive suggestions as to what individuals can do to help the environment.

    Once again, thanking you for your consideration in advance,

    Icarus

    PS Just to illustrate how much you do indeed lack the ability to read/hear/understand nuance:

    From Wiki:
    "Begging the question" can also refer to making an argument in which the premise "is different from the conclusion ... but is controversial or questionable for the same reasons that typically might lead someone to question the conclusion."

    Additionally, I never advocated for "the death of 700,000 people to help the environment" This is a classic example of twisting words to suit your opinion. It is intellectually dishonest and you know it!

    What I said in response to a post of yours, was that "it might be argued t by some that a smaller population on the planet might be a good thing, and that was a different conversation all together." (sic)

    So, once again, just because you think it so, doesn't make it so.

    I will not participate in rising to any more of your twisted, knowingly dishonest baiting on this thread. I prefaced the entire thread to be positive and I intend to stay that way.
     
  10. darelldd

    darelldd Prius is our Gas Guzzler

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    Quite true. But what is happening is people seeing/buying/comparing LED bulbs these days... and using the rated wattage of the LED to determine or explain how bright it is. So they assume that a 5W LED will be five times as bright as a 1W LED. And this most certainly does not need to be the case. In this situation, the wattage has ZERO to do with brightness, and only shows how much energy is dissipated in the device. Actually it only shows what the device is capable of, and has nothing to do with how hard it is driven... or how bright it is. NOTHING. So if I tell you that I have a 60W LED array, it means absolutely nothing. Not how hard it is driven. Not how much energy it takes to run it, and not how bright it is. It only tells us the rating of those LEDs. A 60W LED array could be as dim as a night light, or 10X brighter than a 60W incandescent bulb. THAT's my big issue, and the main reason I want to get away from using Wattage when describing bulbs. But yes.. and uphill battle for sure. Much like switching to the metric system!

    They also come up to full brightness (effectively) immediately in (effectively) any temperature.
     
  11. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    Just because some ancient British King had twelve fingers and toes, why should humanity continue to suffer such a bizarre system of measurement? Metric is easy because it's so logical. Water boils at 100, freezes at 0, and one cubic centimetre of it has a mass of one gram. The rest of it is simply adding or taking away zeros. Don't convert, just throw the old system out.

    So, lumens, is it? Brilliant. ;)
     
  12. radioprius1

    radioprius1 Climate Conspirisist

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    Please stop spreading this nonsense. I love being told about science by someone who thought if you add heat to water it turns into ice.

    http://www.theclimateconspiracy.com/files/images/2010/01/Screen-shot-2010-01-17-at-6.31.10-PM-Jan-17.png
     
  13. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    Mods,

    Can you please advise RadioPrius1 that it is inappropriate to be deliberately taking quotes out of context, AND replying to posts in one thread by posting in another. I am not sure what his motivation is.

    Thank you.

    Icarus

    PS, If anyone is interested in reading the quote from the above post in context I suggest that you go here:http://priuschat.com/forums/environ...ows-2009-tied-2nd-warmest-year-record-10.html Post # 94
    Just to be clear, I did not make mention of "global socialism". A previous poster had use the phrase as an argument as to what was "really" behind global warming.
     
  14. drees

    drees Senior Member

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    Heh, Mr. Radiologist is clearly doing research for his latest book and blog posts. You know - by trolling the internet forums, because that's where all good information comes from.

    Ignore the troll - he is clearly aiming only to stir things up (and not in a productive way).
     
  15. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    Now that we have cleared that bump in the road perhaps we can move on in a positive direction.

    I think that the issue of buying green power is a interesting one. We pa a certain percentage extra to buy a certain portion of our electricity from renewable sources. In Washington State you can buy anywhere from a small portion to all of your power that way.

    If nothing else, by buying some portion of green power, you help drive the technology forward, and help enable more expensive energy production to compete. I use the term "more expensive" with some trepidation knowing how some folks will react. What I mean by more expensive is, more expensive 1st cost, not more expensive with total costs factored in. (Including environmental costs).

    Washington is a great example of how low or no emission systems can work in close integration. We have lots of Hydro for peak demand, but we also have vast areas in Eastern WA that are ideally suited for wind. Some of the largest wind farms in the world are in Eastern WA and E. OR. Additionally vast areas of the desert in E WA are ideally sited for PV solar, getting ~300 days of good sun per year.

    It doesn't take too much imagination to see that these three no carbon technologies can provide substantial loads for significant amounts of time. If Pv and wind can pick up substantial base loads on average, the hydo can be saved in reserved for times of low sun or low wind.

    Reducing loads over time through system and consumer efficiencies along with increasing the production of Pv & wind, perhaps by as much as ten fold (which doesn't seem reasonable in this environment) and one begins realize that there are reasonable solutions that don't have to involve going back to the stone age, or medieval times as has been so often suggested.

    The real question is, are we willing to pay a small price now, to prevent having to pay a much bigger price going forward? We already consume far less energy than average (without significant hardship or expense) paying an additional 10% to buy green energy seems like a cheap trade off.
     
  16. patsparks

    patsparks An Aussie perspective

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    That is odd, in Australia an electric blanket goes under the bottom sheet over the mattress.
    Who in their right mind would put the heated blanket over themselves when heat rises?
     
  17. patsparks

    patsparks An Aussie perspective

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    By paying a premium for your electricity to come from a wind farm you make it more profitable so more wind farms will be built.

    If you didn't buy a Prius then 1 less Prius would have been made because there would have been less demand for Prius. If you instead bought an Escolade then 1 more Escolate would have been built to meet demand.
     
  18. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    I think that something else that is overlooked is leading by example.

    It has been suggested on other threads that we would have to go back to the stone age in order to reduce carbon enough to matter. (In spite of the estimates that we need to reduce emissions ~20-30%). I have posted in other threads that I live a very conventional lifestyle, in a very conventional house, and yet we use ~20% as much energy as the average American. We achieve this with some simple conservation, some simple add ons to the house, and some simple changes in habits, many of which I highlighted in the original post in this thread.

    So, if we can achieve an ~80% reduction without returning to the stone age, (We've got hot and cold running water, central heat, fridge and freezer,, even a hot tub!) and the changes we have made over the past couple of decades to achieve this level of energy consumption, how can anyone claim that it will take us back to the stone age to solve critical environmental problems?

    Everything we have done has had a net/net benefit financially! For example, changing out bulbs to CFLs pay back in ~ 50 hours of use! Changing to LED will make that even faster! Adding ceiling insulation pays off in a year or so. Demand water heater pays in a few years, the solar water heater in a couple of years. And on, and on, and on.

    So by leading by example I don't just mean doing the "green" things, but make it known to others what it is you do, and how well it works, how much cheaper things are likely to be if others emulated what you have done.

    I think it incumbent on people to show others that little things matter, and that little things add up to big things. It is also important to drive home to skeptics that these changes are not draconian, won't bankrupt anyone, and indeed might save people some money.
     
  19. drees

    drees Senior Member

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    I think your "payback" calcs are off by a factor of 10 or so for the CFLs and LEDs take even longer because they're so expensive, but otherwise agree. :)
     
  20. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    I was quoting from other stuff I have read. I will do some calcs and post later. That said, since you pay nearly zero premium for CFLS nowdays, and can even get them for "free" after utility rebates, the payoff might indeed be 50 hours.

    If you figure a bulb at $1, compared to a incandescent at $.50, using 1/4 as much energy, it doesn't take long to pay off. At $.2/kwh a 60 watt bulb will have an energy cost of ~ $. 012/hour. The Cfl would cost $.003/hour if my math is anywhere near close. So at 20 cents a KWH, to pay off the 50 cent price difference would pay off in,,,55.5 hours!

    If you got the bulbs free, the pay off is,,, right away!

    As I said, LED don't calculate that easily yet, but as the price comes down, they certainly will.

    Icarus

    PS (Don't trust my math,,,)