1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

WSJ article on hybrids

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by JackDodge, Dec 25, 2005.

  1. JackDodge

    JackDodge Gold Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    2,366
    4
    0
    Location:
    Bloomfield Hills, MI
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Pretty good article on hybrids. It comes from the WSJ but was reprinted by my local newspaper. There's a neat image too but I just noticed that I can't put attachments on this post. Perhaps I can post the entire thing in pdf format on a reply post.

    Drive Buy: Hybrids Now Are a Better Deal
    BY KELLY K. SPORS


    Most people buy hybrid cars because they want to save the environment. Soon the cars may save you money, too.
    Come Jan. 1, most consumers who buy new hybrid gasoline-electric automobiles will be eligible for tax credits that may save as much as $3,400 in income tax. The new credits, coupled with the introduction of several new hybrid models, are likely to jumpstart hybrid sales in the new year. “We’re expecting to see hybrids fly off lots a lot faster now,†says Kateri Callahan, president of the Alliance to Save Energy, a Washington, D.C., nonprofit advocacy group.
    Roughly 400,000 hybrids have been sold in the U.S. since their introduction six years ago, and they currently make up about 1% of total U.S. vehicle sales. But forecasters project hybrids could reach as much as 5% of sales by 2010.
    Hybrids generally sell for between $2,000 and $5,000 more than comparable gasoline-engine vehicles. It typically takes years to recoup that higher price through savings from buying less gas. But the new credits will significantly lower the payback time on some hybrids, experts say, and certain models could even prove less costly to own over time than the comparable standard autos.
    Here’s a look at the economics of buying a hybrid:
    Purchase Price
    Car shoppers comparing the price of a hybrid to a standard vehicle need to consider the appropriate model to look at. The 2006 Honda Civic hybrid, with a $21,850 sticker price, is frequently considered most like the conventional 2006 Honda Civic EX sedan, a fully loaded Civic that retails for $19,060–or $2,790 less.
    Other hybrids, such as the Toyota Prius, the top-selling hybrid so far, are harder to match up. Most observers say the features of the 2006 Prius (suggested retail: $21,725) fall somewhere between those of a Toyota Camry, which starts at about $18,500, and a Toyota Corolla, which starts at around $14,000.
    Some hybrids occasionally sell above sticker price, because of high demand.
    Tax Credits
    The new tax credits replace a $2,000 tax deduction on hybrids that’s been available in recent years. Credits are usually far more lucrative than deductions, because credits reduce your tax bill dollar for dollar, while deductions reduce your taxable income. For someone in the top 35% tax bracket, the old $2,000 deduction produced a $700 tax savings.
    The Internal Revenue Service has yet to release final guidance on the credits, but energy-conservation advocacy groups estimate the credits will range from $250 to $3,400, based on fuel economy and vehicle weight.
    To see a list of the estimated tax credits on current and expected hybrid car models, check out www.aceee.org/transportation/ hybtaxcred.htm online. Of 21 hybrids listed, 14 have estimated credits in excess of $1,000. Three probably won’t be eligible for credits. (At least one state, Colorado, has a state tax credit, too.)
    Fuel Savings
    Hybrids use less fuel because they switch between an electric motor and a gasoline engine. Some can go 60 miles on a gallon of gasoline. That greater fuel efficiency has become more valuable as oil prices have risen. And the combination of the gasoline savings and the new tax credits will allow buyers to recoup the hybrids’ higher price tags much sooner than in the past.
    With a $3,150 estimated tax credit, a buyer of a Toyota Prius should recoup the extra cost compared to a Camry in just under a year—or in about 6.7 years compared to a Corolla, according to the Alliance to Save Energy.
    One caveat: “Just because it’s a hybrid doesn’t mean you’re going to get 50 miles per gallon,†says David Garman, U.S. undersecretary of energy. Some auto makers have adopted a hybrid design primarily to enhance a vehicle’s power and handling. For hybrids that are highly fuel efficient, Mr. Garman says,“obviously, the more you drive, the more you’ll save.â€
    Repairs and Maintenance
    One tricky question about hybrids is how their maintenance and repair costs will compare to conventional vehicles over time. Since most hybrids are relatively new, it’s difficult to gauge how well they’ll hold up in old age.
    Most hybrids come with manufacturers’ warranties of up to three years or 36,000 miles, whichever comes first, similar to standard vehicles, though certain components are covered for longer.
    Hybrid owners are more limited in the mechanics they can use, says Jesse Toprak, senior analyst for Edmunds.com. Hybrid owners often must take the vehicles back to the dealership for repairs since the technology is rather new and few mechanics are trained to repair hybrids. As far as the amount of repairs and maintenance needed, though, hybrids seem very similar to standard vehicles, he says.
    Insurers say there’s currently no difference in premium for insuring hybrids compared with comparable gasoline-engine vehicles. That could change over time as more information about repair costs becomes available, says Dick Luedke, a spokesman for State Farm Insurance.
    The Battery Question
    Another big question about the long-term costs of owning a hybrid concerns the possible need to replace the battery.
    Hybrids require a nickel-metal hydride battery pack that can cost $3,000 to replace. To protect customers, most manufacturers guarantee to fix or replace those batteries for up to eight years or 100,000 miles, whichever comes first. But some auto experts worry that hybrid owners could be surprised if the battery fails after the guarantee period.
    Cindy Knight, a Toyota spokeswoman, says the company’s battery packs are designed to last at least 120,000 miles, or the typical life of the vehicle. So far, “we haven’t had any replacements that [owners] themselves have had to pay for,†she says. A small number of batteries have been replaced under warranty, usually because of a crash, she adds.
    Mr. Garman of the Department of Energy notes that battery prices already have fallen, and are likely to continue to fall as the technology becomes more mainstream. But for now, fear of having to replace the battery as hybrids age could affect their resale value, especially when the warranty nears expiration, says Mr. Toprak of Edmunds.com.
    He recommends hybrid buyers who plan to keep their vehicles for more than 100,000 miles buy an extended warranty on the battery, if possible: The battery issue “is definitely something that makes people worried.â€
    Email: [email protected]
     
  2. mehrenst

    mehrenst Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2005
    439
    7
    0
    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    II
    DUH!

    Is this the same WSJ that was happily trashing the Prius/Hybrids as beeing totally overpriced just a few weeks ago?
     
  3. JackDodge

    JackDodge Gold Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    2,366
    4
    0
    Location:
    Bloomfield Hills, MI
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    You'd have to look up that other article and see who the author was. WSJ, as with all publications, has many reporters with their own opinions and each article has a different take on a given subject so it's not unusual to see contradictory articles appear in the same publication.
     
  4. tag

    tag Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    2,526
    19
    0
    Location:
    Chicago
    That other article was a satirical op-ed piece by Holman Jenkins. Among other things, he believes:

    If Prius owners consume less, there's less demand, prices will be lower and somebody else will step up to consume more than they would at the otherwise higher price. That's the price mechanism at work.....

    In the nature of things, the cheapest oil is consumed first, and Mideast oil is the cheapest. Drive a Hummer if you want to reduce America's reliance on Arab oil....
     
  5. mdmikemd

    mdmikemd Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2005
    436
    13
    0
    Location:
    Minneapolis
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    At least they "compared" it to a Camry. I read articles comparing the Prius to a Corolla which then allows them to say you can same $6000 on a Corolla. When we were shopping for a new car, we never considered the Corolla...too small inside. It was between the Prius, Camry and Rav4.
     
  6. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
    Staff Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2004
    45,024
    16,244
    41
    Location:
    Canada
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I was considering a Corolla when I was shopping. The only difference was, I was looking at a fully loaded LE model with all the trimmings, not their base CE 5-spd version.
     
  7. mdmikemd

    mdmikemd Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2005
    436
    13
    0
    Location:
    Minneapolis
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    The Prius had more headroom, I'm 6'2" and have plenty of extra room in the Prius. In the Corolla, my head was rubbing on the ceiling...
     
  8. djasonw

    djasonw Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 13, 2004
    952
    116
    0
    Location:
    Coconut Creek, FL
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Another article written by someone with a few facts.

    Does the Corolla come with:

    SE/SS
    HIDS
    NAV
    BLUETOOTH
    ETC....

    Warranty is NOT just 3/36k. Hybrid power train is 100/8 150/10. Power train 60/5

    Life of the vehicle is 120,000???? If that's what they expect, I won't be buying a Toyota anymore.
     
  9. dipper

    dipper Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2005
    1,242
    252
    0
    I love this quote.

    Who will sell you a warranty beyond 100k (especially when the battery is already warrantied for 100k already)? :rolleyes:
     
  10. p626808

    p626808 New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2004
    292
    15
    0
    Location:
    NJ
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    V

    Anyone know how to get this over 100K battery warrenty?
     
  11. tag

    tag Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2003
    2,526
    19
    0
    Location:
    Chicago
    For the 2005 model year, the following states are covered under the California Emissions warranty: CA, CT, ME, MA, NH, NJ, NY, RI, VT.

    Sooo, in those states, isn't the traction battery covered for 150k miles? Thus, if you're in NJ, is there really a need for an "over-100k miles" extended warranty?