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Will the EU ever Rival the US as a Worlds Superpower

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by dbermanmd, Oct 24, 2007.

  1. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    The EU is attempting to ratify their 250-plus page Reform Treaty. This calls for a permanent EU president, a European foreign minister and a European Union diplomatic service. The agreement also calls for EU nations to surrender sovereignty in many areas to centralized decision-making; and it reduces national veto rights to allow more decisions to be made by majority voting instead of by unanimous consent.

    The people controlling all this power are unelected by the Europeans in general which is interesting. Also interesting is that this Treaty is reportedly almost identical to the European Constitution which Europeans rejected several years ago. This time, in an attempt to circumvent the will of the people, ordinary European citizens will NOT vote on the treaty - the only exception at this point in Ireland which will submit it to a popular vote - the Treaty seeks only member nations Parliaments to vote on it! If ratified it takes effect in early 2009.

    I believe the EU is attempting at becoming a World Superpower. Do you think it is possible for them to do that?

    I think this can be divided into several areas - economic and diplomatic power.

    My opinion is that being worlds super power requires the capability of enforcing your will if necessary - or at the least possessing enough force or deterrence that foreign entities recognize it as being significant and potentially overwhelming - AND at the same time - demonstrating a willingness to use it if necessary.

    While it might be true that Europe economically will be able to call itself collectively a "super power", it lacks the foundation currently of anything beyond that. That until the Europeans put together a military force and demonstrates a willingness to use it they will never truly be a worlds super power. Given their recent history and current performance and modus operandi of shying away from all things military it will take a huge shift, almost a discontinuous change, for them to achieve the status of being a true world super power.

    I think for the sake of discussion we will forgo the potential issues of the nations within the EU relating to their inability to live with each other and just be neighborly. It would be a nice thought that they all could get along with each other - so lets pretend they just do.
     
  2. malorn

    malorn Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Oct 24 2007, 07:54 AM) [snapback]529640[/snapback]</div>
    Short answer is no. Unless the countries completely give up their soveriegnty, it is mostly just a loose trading group anyways. The day that all France and Great Britain decide to have one permanent vote on the UN security council instead of two, then I will consider the EU more than a trading bloc with a currency.
     
  3. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Oct 24 2007, 09:42 AM) [snapback]529654[/snapback]</div>
    Wouldn't that be an (economic) superpower?
     
  4. malorn

    malorn Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Oct 24 2007, 08:59 AM) [snapback]529661[/snapback]</div>
    I think in some ways the EU is an economic superpower, at least when considered as a market. As a producer I am not so sure. The problem with the EU is if the population continues to dwindle it's power will continue to dwindle.
     
  5. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Oct 24 2007, 09:42 AM) [snapback]529654[/snapback]</div>
    I agree. How about making believe they are/act as one?
     
  6. Hobbs

    Hobbs New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(malorn @ Oct 24 2007, 02:03 PM) [snapback]529662[/snapback]</div>
    The EU has 490 million . The US has 303 million. We're dwindling as fast as we can over here but it may take a while. :D
     
  7. paulccullen

    paulccullen New Member

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    If not EU, who will be the next superpower?

    Throughout history we've seen superpowers come and go. From Greece and Rome to Great Britain and the USSR, various nations have had their "moment in the sun".

    But what makes a superpower?
    Financial power?
    Culture and education?
    Technology and inovation?
    Military might?
    Freedom and human rights?

    The USA still has the greatest military strength, but in other aspects we have been, or are being surpassed.

    Will we regain our world stature, or, like Rome and Britain before us, is our time is coming to an end? And if so, who will be next?
     
  8. Hobbs

    Hobbs New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Oct 24 2007, 12:54 PM) [snapback]529640[/snapback]</div>
    Tell that to the families of the 171 UK service people that have dwindled in Iraq.

    Can anyone count the number of EU countries contributing more personnel than the US to the UN? I count 10 but I may have missed some.

    Ranking of Military and Police
    Contributions to UN Operations
    Month of Report : 30-Sep-07
    Country Number of Members
    1 ) Pakistan . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10,629
    2 ) Bangladesh . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9,728
    3 ) India . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9,352
    4 ) Nepal . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3,674
    5 ) Jordan . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3,564
    6 ) Ghana . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2,950
    7 ) Uruguay . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2,599
    8 ) Nigeria . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2,486
    9 ) Italy . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2,432
    10 ) France . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1,950
    11 ) Senegal . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1,917
    12 ) Ethiopia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1,825
    13 ) China . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1,811
    14 ) Morocco . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1,537
    15 ) Benin . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1,320
    16 ) Brazil . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1,280
    17 ) South Africa . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1,210
    18 ) Spain . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1,194
    19 ) Germany . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1,126
    20 ) Sri Lanka . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1,104
    21 ) Kenya . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1,092
    22 ) Indonesia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1,075
    23 ) Egypt . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 984
    24 ) Poland . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 981
    25 ) Turkey . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 944
    26 ) Argentina . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 897
    27 ) Malaysia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 671
    28 ) Philippines . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 667
    29 ) Namibia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 651
    30 ) Niger . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 583
    31 ) Ukraine . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 550
    32 ) Chile . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 520
    33 ) Tunisia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 501
    34 ) Zambia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 490
    35 ) Bolivia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 457
    36 ) Portugal . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 437
    37 ) Austria . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 413
    Page 1 of 3
    Country Number of Members
    38 ) Republic of Korea . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 400
    39 ) United Kingdom . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 365
    40 ) Togo . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 340
    41 ) Rwanda . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 339
    42 ) Belgium . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 338
    43 ) United States of America . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 307
    44 ) Slovakia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 297
    45 ) Russia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 291
    46 ) Fiji . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 270
    47 ) Romania . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 269
    48 ) Mongolia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 262
    49 ) Guatemala . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 253
    50 ) Greece . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 252
    51 ) Finland . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 248
    52 ) Peru . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 246
    53 ) Ireland . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 213
    54 ) Qatar . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 203
    55 ) Netherlands . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 201
    56 ) Malawi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 161
    57 ) Cambodia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 146
    58 ) Cameroon . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 141
    59 ) Zimbabwe . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 139
    60 ) Canada . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 131
    61 ) Hungary . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 118
    62 ) Mali . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 117
    63 ) Sweden . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 113
    64 ) Tanzania . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 111
    65 ) Australia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 108
    66 ) Gambia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 98
    67 ) Ecuador . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 93
    68 ) Burkina Faso . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 80
    69 ) Paraguay . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 78
    70 ) Yemen . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 77
    71 ) Denmark . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 76
    72 ) Norway . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 74
    73 ) Uganda . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 69
    74 ) Guinea . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 61
    75 ) Thailand . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 59
    76 ) Bulgaria . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 57
    77 ) Croatia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 55
    78 ) El Salvador . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 48
    79 ) New Zealand . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 40
    Page 2 of 3
    Country Number of Members
    80 ) Samoa . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 39
    81 ) Czech Republic . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 39
    82 ) Japan . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 38
    83 ) Switzerland . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 34
    84 ) Kyrgyzstan . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 31
    85 ) Singapore . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 28
    86 ) Bosnia and Herzegovina . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 27
    87 ) Cote d Ivoire . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 27
    88 ) Djibouti . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 27
    89 ) Serbia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 22
    90 ) Madagascar . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 21
    91 ) Burundi . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 18
    92 ) Slovenia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 17
    93 ) Jamaica . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16
    94 ) Chad . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13
    95 ) Honduras . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12
    96 ) Vanuatu . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10
    97 ) Lithuania . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 9
    98 ) Gabon . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
    99 ) Moldova . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
    100 ) Algeria . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 8
    101 ) Botswana . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5
    102 ) Central African Republic . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5
    103 ) Dominican Republic . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 4
    104 ) Iran . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
    105 ) Grenada . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
    106 ) Mozambique . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
    107 ) Albania . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
    108 ) Sierra Leone . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 3
    109 ) Estonia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
    110 ) Timor-Leste . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
    111 ) DR Congo . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
    112 ) Luxembourg . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
    113 ) Cyprus . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
    114 ) Montenegro . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
    115 ) Colombia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
    116 ) FYR of Macedonia . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 2
    117 ) Mauritius . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
    118 ) Kazakhstan . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
    119 ) Palau . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 1
    Grand Total 83,445
    Page 3 of 3
     
  9. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hobbs @ Oct 24 2007, 10:44 AM) [snapback]529681[/snapback]</div>
    I think thou oversimplifies. You are probably adding in Eastern European countries who are very Pro-US which is fine. You also do not address the significant issue of Europe's Muslim population which is not being assimilated and accounts for nearly 50% of all live births in France, Germany, England while they compose less than 20% of the population - a very significant challenge to Western Europe if I might add - and invasion from within?? At current rates of birth and death - Western Europe will totally transform itself in the next 2-4 decades and a new majority will be in control.

    The US has a + growth rate without factoring in immigrants.

    And, obviously population alone is of little significance.
     
  10. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hobbs @ Oct 24 2007, 11:25 AM) [snapback]529697[/snapback]</div>
    exactly my point - contributions to the UN - thats all you need to see.

    and if there is any hope in Western Europe it is GB. I honor their commitment to our relationship as an American - and those citizens of that country that died in combat in the Middle East. That number of KIA, and each one is significant, represents a small fraction of loss of life as compared to other conflicts they have fought. I wonder how many Brits die each year in their military services by accidents or other non-combat related phenomenon?

    Again, where is the European "stick"? they sure have lots of carrots but i have yet to see them swing a stick.
     
  11. paulccullen

    paulccullen New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Oct 24 2007, 08:26 AM) [snapback]529699[/snapback]</div>
    Mmm. A Muslim-controlled Europe. Now that's an interesting thought. :unsure:

    Assalamu Alikum...
     
  12. eagle33199

    eagle33199 Platinum Member

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    As a group, the EU won't have such a "stick" until they centralize their military control, which won't happen anytime soon. It's like the US back in the day - we used to be a loose collection of states, each maintaining its own militia, printing its own currency, and jockeying for position in the newly formed "national" government.

    Now look at us today - Everything is nationalized, and the states themselves have very little power. Instead, the power is all in the political parties. Will the EU get to this point? Maybe someday. But the treaty they have on the table is only one step of a rather long journey.
     
  13. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(paulccullen @ Oct 24 2007, 12:17 PM) [snapback]529723[/snapback]</div>
    Quite...

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Oct 24 2007, 12:21 PM) [snapback]529726[/snapback]</div>
    I do not think your analogy has any relevance here.
     
  14. nerfer

    nerfer A young senior member

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    Personally, I think it's inevitable. They can deal with high-priced oil much better than we can, and we're continuing to spread out our resources trying to police the world whether it needs it or not. When oil prices double from today, our power will be limited and the EU is the best candidate to fill that space. China will have power just on sheer numbers, but I don't think they'll have the organization or direction for that. Russia will linger on like it is.

    Is the EU population really declining? I thought immigration was making up for a declining birth rate.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Oct 24 2007, 12:57 PM) [snapback]529780[/snapback]</div>
    It's entirely relevant. Or maybe use the analogy of the formation of Germany from a collection of city-states and regions into a world power in less than a century. That was much more than a military change, but obviously we remember the military aspects.
     
  15. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(nerfer @ Oct 24 2007, 02:18 PM) [snapback]529790[/snapback]</div>
    How is Europe better able to handle the higher costs of oil than the US?

    Interesting you picked Germany for your analogy - again - a has been country whose role a a super power has long been shelved in histories pages.

    You should study European birth rates and immigration patterns - it is simply frightening. The worst off amongst all of the is Russia.

    Your statement about the rise of China is way pre-mature.

    Again, the question is can the EU rise up to challenge the US as a worlds superpower. my answer is no, not close, and until there are significant changes in how they think and operate - never. given the current state of affairs, Europe has seen its point of maximum world influence and is and has been declining ever since WWI and this was accelerated by WWII and further accelerated by their current social systems.
     
  16. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    If the world adopts the more stable Euro as its currency of trade, instead of the rapidly declining US dollar, that alone will be a huge shift in power.

    As for future superpowers and what the defining characteristics might be, how about:

    - a surplus of increasingly scarce and valuable commodities like energy and water.

    - an abundance of arable land

    - the ability to govern through respect and cooperation instead of fear and mutually-assured destruction

    - a skilled, educated, and innovative workforce

    Well, food for thought, anyway. :)
     
  17. tripp

    tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

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    The EU is already a larger economy (33% vs 27%) and they have a positive trade balance. And they do that working less and distributing their wealth far better than we do (and I'm not talking about welfare). They consume far less energy per capita (about half). We could learn a lot from them if we'd just get over ourselves.
     
  18. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Oct 24 2007, 11:07 PM) [snapback]530031[/snapback]</div>
    Huh?

    the definition of "world super power" leaves little for the things you list above. you have a lot of ifs. for sure, the current state of the EU does not allow them to be considered a worlds super power.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Oct 25 2007, 02:32 AM) [snapback]530115[/snapback]</div>
    could you provide me the stats. thanks.

    but they cannot still be considered a worlds super power
     
  19. eagle33199

    eagle33199 Platinum Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Oct 24 2007, 12:57 PM) [snapback]529780[/snapback]</div>
    How so?

    You have to realize, Berman, that the art of debate isn't simply about telling other people that they're wrong or their point is irrelevant - you also have to show why that is so.

    So please tell me, why is history in this case irrelevant? Every world superpower has come about through the combination of neighboring states. America was formed through the combination of 13 separate colonies - If you read your history, you'd know that initially we were little more than a loose conglomeration of trading partnerships. But we used that as a starting point to get to where we are today. Look at Russia - Back when they were the only other superpower, they were the USSR - a conglomeration of previously separate states.

    The steps the EU is taking will (maybe slowly) pull them together. They've already essentially broken down their borders. They've adopted a single currency. They're starting to act in unison when it comes to trade. It's only a matter of time before they adopt a common government, even if it is a weak one. That government will slowly amass power from the states, much like we did when we were founded.

    Rather than dismissing my argument out of hand, please provide proof that it's irrelevant. Just because you don't like it, and because it means that maybe the US isn't so much better than everyone else as you seem to think doesn't mean it's irrelevant.
     
  20. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Oct 25 2007, 10:06 AM) [snapback]530215[/snapback]</div>
    believe it or not i understand and agree with your point and hence the reason for my post. so, do you think it possible for the EU to rival the US as a worlds superpower?

    i have stated that we will make believe they can all live together - which is slightly short of a miracle in any event - i personally cannot see the french, the brits, the germans, the italians etc ever truly getting along - they have trouble making planes together - i cant see them ceding control of their military of their cultures (mind you long established cultures) etc to a central organization in brussel's - especially an UNelected bunch of people at that.

    so, do you think the united states of europe could ever rival the US of A as a worlds superpower?