Who's fault is this?

not sure how the rules are in the states, but in Canada, when you pass your driver's liscence test, one of the question asks you what a yellow (orange) light means: Stop unless you are so close to the intersection that it is unsafe to do so; the light is about to change to red.

so it sounds according to that that it WAS safe to stop for you. while the turning vehicule was probably already half-way into the intersection waiting for a turning opportunity. so unfortunately, i would say that you were at fault. at least according to those statements.

as for your vehicule, i don't think you would have damaged anything if you just slid and didn't hit anything... maybe the tires? lol but i am not a mechanic.

 

Wrong response, almost undoubtedly puts you at fault. Your car has disc brakes just for this situation.

 

It is his fault. If the light is orange and you very near you have the right to pass. He probably miscalculated your speed and thought he could turn or was just impatient or thought you were going to stop abruptly or whatever.
I doubt you have damaged anything: when you slam on the brakes you completely skip regeneration and friction brakes engage immediately. A good full stop is just healthy for them as they tend to rust because they are used very little.

 

You "sped up" when the light was orange. Therefore, at the least, you share in the fault.:violin:

 

The fun part about driving laws in the US, is that each state essentially can make up their own. I'm sure there are fundamental ones which carry over from state to state, though. Here, a yellow light means to slow down and prepare to stop. In fact, if a cop sees you speed up to beat the light, I believe they can give you a ticket for "aggressive driving". Have I ever seen anyone get a ticket? No.

I'm assuming you went straight through the intersection and the other guy turned left through it? If that's the case, technically he should be yielding to the through traffic.

I noticed you mentioned that maybe he was being impatient, but it appears that you were having that same feeling at the time. Regardless, I'm sure we have all had that want to beat a light at some point. I think that both of you are really at fault on this one. The good thing is that there was no collision and neither of you was hurt this time.

My recommendation, next time stop when the light is changing from yellow to red.

 

PERFECT answer!
Very well thought out, explained succinctly, and I agree completely.
thanks.

 

Some people should not be issued driver's licenses...

 

It's called the Uniform Vehicle Code. However, the UVC is only a recommendation, and each state is free to write their own laws. Municipalities may also have their own laws, but most states try to force conformity. In Michigan this is called the Uniform Traffic Code, and state law makes it easy for a city to adopt the code as a package.

As for the OP's question, it is wrong to speed up at a yellow light. It is also wrong not to yield while turning left. Both could be considered at fault. The crux of the argument would be the state of the light, and that is likely to be a his-word against your-word argument. You would need eye witnesses or a traffic camera for any sort of proof. Lacking that, the determination of guilt would come down to the officer responding, if there had been a collision.

Tom

 

mwok,

I'm with you on the issue of going through while the light is yellow. .

Where I live, which is congested and people drive like maniacs (anyway), if I were to suddenly stop everytime I approached an intersection where the light had just turned yellow, I would be replacing my rear bumper every month.

To those that think you were wrong, I say - It depends on the situation, and in most urban settings, where traffic is congested, and people are already going too fast, and riding your bumper (that's just the reality of driving in an urban environment - sorry, but it is)...to suddently brake so that you don't enter the intersection while the light is yellow, is, IMO, even more dangerous.

I've been rear-ended on more than one occasion doing exactly what some of you have suggested. I could give a crap that I am in the right, and that the person who rear-ended me is at fault. It's a major safety issue, as well as a major hassle to get the car fixed.

By the way, most, if not all intersections that i know of have a 2 second delay after the light turns RED, before the other lights turn green.

IMO, if you're at least a car length (or two) into the intersection BEFORE the light turns red, I think I would fight any ticket you might have received. But then again, I don't know the local laws where you live.

 

Tricky.

I'm assuming you were pushing the boundaries of safely entering the intersection and the opposing vehicle was waiting to make a turn against oncoming traffic. Sometimes all the split second decisions made by everyone- instantaneously become bad.

Sorry, but I think if the car adjacent to you stopped, the light had already turned orange, and there was visibly a vehicle waiting to turn...I think it correct that you probably should of slowed to stop instead of speed up as the light was orange.

This comes down to advice I was given Eons ago when I was taught to drive. "Don't Push It". Seems to me you were speeding up...to try and make it through a "Orange" light...with a vehicle already in place, simultaneously waiting to make a turn. The better decision would of been to realize a opposing vehicle was also waiting for the Orange, and stopped traffic, to make a turn and leave the intersection, and the best decision was to stop.

But it's a split second judgement call. Which is exactly why things like this often turn out badly. The opposing vehicle also was "pushing it" and turning without regard to the fact that you were still approaching. So my "cop out" vote is I think it likely that it would of been better if you had decided to slow to stop, instead of speed up to make it through, and it also would of been better if the turning vehicle would of let you through, then turned on the red light...however both of you were playing the Orange light badly.

My question to you is "Honestly" when did you notice a vehicle waiting to turn? You noticed the light changing and reacted by speeding up...but did you notice the vehicle waiting to turn before or after this reaction? I think I'm capable of the same mistake....it happens...but if I see a light changing AND notice a vehicle in the intersection waiting or commited to turning against the oncoming traffic, right, wrong or indifferent I think the best decision is to "Not Push It" and simply come to a stop.

 

I agree with Qbee. If there was an accident, insurance companies would split the fault and assign a percentage to each person, and this clearly seems to be a case where both people share in the fault. The exception is being rear-ended which is generally entirely the person's fault who does the rear-ending. If you see a stale yellow, you don't speed up, especially if the person beside you is stopping. That was the first mistake. The other driver compounded the problem by not yielding, but I would bet you could both get tickets out of it if the police got involved.

And that style of driving is perpetuated by people like you. The driver in the other lane was able to safely stop, so mwok should have been able to do so also. There's enough of a yellow that if you're paying attention and see it turn yellow, you can either stop safely or get thru the intersection (all the way through) before it turns red. Safety engineers spend time measuring average speeds and set the yellow duration so that people don't get rear-ended for stopping, if they start stopping soon after it turns yellow (and not wait several seconds, then jam on the brakes). If it turns red while you're in the intersection, you're playing with fire and you deserve what you get.

I think it's one second at most.

The original traffic lights only had red and green. They added yellow for a reason - use it!

 

Nope 2 seconds in the jurisdictions I drive and live in.

 

From our legal department -

Minturn Wright, Attorney at Law -


Remarkably, what a steady yellow traffic signal light means varies from place to place. You'd think that this is one of the most important traffic signals to have mean the same thing from coast to coast, but despite all the uniformization of certain traffic laws, this isn't one of them.


In some states, such as Maryland, a "steady yellow signal" means simply that "the related green movement is ending" or that the light is about to turn red (Code of Maryland, Transportation Article, Section 21-202 (g)). In other words, drivers may keep entering the intersection; in other other words, "green means go, yellow means go like hell". In the District of Columbia, however, a steady yellow light means yes, the light is about to turn red, but more importantly, "Vehicular traffic shall stop before entering the nearest crosswalk of the intersection, unless so close to the intersection that a stop cannot safely be made" (D.C. Municipal Regulations, Title 18, Chapter 21, Section 2103.5 (b)). In other words, a yellow light means "do not enter the intersection" and allows a few seconds for traffic in the intersection to get out of the intersection so that when cross-traffic gets its green light, those drivers don't have to wait for the intersection to be cleared (at least, in theory).


This can make for some interesting situations on roads that form, or cross, the border between D.C. and its Maryland suburbs. Consider the intersection of Wisconsin and Western Avenues; Western runs along the border, while Wisconsin crosses it. Thus, if you're driving north on Wisconsin (from D.C. to Maryland), and the light turns yellow, you should stop. If you're driving south (from Maryland to D.C.), and the light turns yellow, you may drive right into the intersection (and into D.C.).


(In reality, I think I've seen a regular D.C. cop make a stop and write a ticket for a moving violation less than ten times in the last decade. That they're so keen on automated red-light cameras ought to tell you something. Furthermore, if you stop for a yellow light in D.C. you risk getting rear-ended, even though you're following the law to the letter.)


I can certainly see the need for a warning that the light is about to turn red or, more properly, that it's about to become illegal to enter the intersection. However, I also see a need for a time during which it's illegal to enter the intersection, but not to be in it, driving out. This allows left-turners to complete their turns, etc., before the light turns green on the cross street. As it is in so much of the country, the drivers on the cross street, who have been waiting for their green light, have to wait even longer while the first street's traffic in the intersection clears out, which happens during the cross street's green light. But when your only signals are red, yellow, and green lights, what can you do?


Here's a thought: borrow an idea from the British, changing it a bit. Just before the end of the green light, the yellow light comes on, with the green. The green-plus-yellow signal means it's still OK to enter the intersection (green light, after all), but drivers are warned that the green is about to end. A second or two later, the green light goes off, leaving only the yellow. Yellow alone means "do not enter the intersection; vehicles already in the intersection must exit it". A few seconds later, the yellow goes off and the red comes on, meaning all traffic must be out of the intersection so cross traffic may enter it.


No, I have no hope that such a sensible idea will actually be instituted. But if you have any thoughts, comments, or questions (about anything), just pop 'em in.

 

Please. Thanks for the comment, mom.

See what the lawyer says (above).

Most sates allow a car, that's at the cross-walks of the intersection, to proceed through the intersection when the light turns yellow. In Maryland, as it is in other states, it's even more ambiguous in that a driver is still allowed to enter the intersection while the light is yellow. That's the law. I suspect in the majority of states, yellow means you should not enter the intersection, but are allowed time to exit if already in (without penalty), with no stipulation on the speed (assuming you aren't exceeding the posted speed limit).

BUT, there's a real PROBLEM in the latter interpretation because what is a person suppose to do, while travelling down the road at 45 mph (or greater), and just as they are a few car lengths from the intersection...the light turns yellow. Are they suppose to slam on their brakes at that point?? What's the stopping distance going 45 mph? I strongly suppect that if you are within a few car lengths of the intersection and try to slam on your brakes, you will come to a stop somewhere in the middle of the intersection (NOT before it) - ergo, blocking traffic. Now wouldn't that be a great scene. LOL.

Sudden de-celerations are, IMO, far more dangerous, and to suddenly slam on you brakes as the light turns yellow, just as you're within 10-20 feet of the intersection, is asking for a rear-end collision or blocking traffic that's coming from the other direction.

 

I want to know why the OP's car slid sideways.

 

The problem is that we are talking about judgment. Suddenly slamming on the brakes is never a good idea, and should be reserved for emergencies. Running a red light isn't a great idea either. In theory, the current system doesn't force drivers to do either. The length of the yellow light allows for drivers to safely stop or safely clear the intersection, assuming they make the right decision and are driving at lawful speeds. Make the wrong call and you may get hit from behind or t-boned in the intersection. Speeding increases the chances of both.

Being hit from behind is the fault of the trailing driver and generally less dangerous than being t-boned in an intersection. Because of this, my default is to stop at a yellow light if I am uncertain. Can't safely stop: I go through. Safely stop: I always stop. Uncertain: I stop. Still, it's a judgment call.

As long as humans are in control of cars there will be human error. Aggressive urban driving styles are not the cause of human error, but they contribute to the likelihood and severity of the consequences.

Tom

 

mwok86 sounds familiar. So you're the guy who drives way too slow and inefficiently going up hills and now you're speeding up at intersections?

To answer your OP, it's my understanding (at least in my area) if you're already or going to be a full car length in the intersection at the time the light changes from yellow to red, you proceed through it. The "not speeding up" rule is probably just a BS that the armchair critics are pulling out of their rear unless they can show the law disallows that.

 

I don't know of any laws that prohibit speeding up if you are driving below the speed limit. There are two areas where you can run afoul the law by speeding up at a yellow light:

1) Some jurisdictions require a driver to stop at a yellow light unless it is unsafe to do so. Speeding up to get through the yellow light is an indication that the driver could have safely stopped, but instead made a willing decision to sneak through.

2) All jurisdictions have catch-all laws against aggressive and reckless driving. These catch-all laws can be applied if you cause an accident by speeding up to get through a light.

Tom

 

Zero seconds on most of the lights I use, with a fractional second to a full second on a minority of them.