Who Killed the Electric Car?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cagemo @ Jul 5 2006, 05:10 PM) [snapback]281622[/snapback]</div>

If you could make the car wholly electric (i.e. no gasoline engine to charge it), it would simplify the design and make it cheaper. However....
If it takes 6-8 hours to charge the batteries, how are you going to be able to drive it outside the city? Once the batteries are discharged, you have to park it for 6-8 hours.
What would be an acceptable time to recharge the batteries, if you are on a trip? 10 minutes? I'm not an electrical engineer, but it seem sto me that no 15-amp circuit is going to be able to supply all that power in 10 minutes, even if the batteries don't overheat.
Moreover, to provide cabin heat, defrost, air conditioning, lights, windshield wiping, etc. is all energy that will be needed over and above the traction engine. So you might get 400 miles on a mild sunny day in the Spring, but you won't get that in a sleet storm at night. You might have to recharge it after only 200 miles.
I suppose it's not impossible to build a car that recharges its batteries from empty to full in 10 minutes, but you're going to need one heck of power source and cables to feed that power into it.
So as far as I can see, plugin hybrids are the only way into the future; all-electric vehicles just aren't practical.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo @ Jul 5 2006, 07:36 PM) [snapback]281679[/snapback]</div>

Where did 10 minutes limit come from? Takes me that long to fill the Prius with gasoline. I'd be happy to wait 20 minutes to charge an all electric car, assuming I had a decent range of over 300 miles. I'd hope that soon we'd have chargers at shopping malls, restaurants, movie theaters, etc, not at just gas stations.

And I'd expect any of these places to have 3 phase 480 volts or whatever was needed.
A 220 volt charge would be fine at home for my garage plug with a bit slower charge.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo @ Jul 5 2006, 07:36 PM) [snapback]281679[/snapback]</div>

Leo~

There are other past threads covering this topic also. That was my gripe, If you took a trip you'd be having to layover somewhere every time you recharge.. but the gas money you save could pay for it

I wonder how they would charge you to plug in and what they would charge $$ as they'd want to make a profit , :huh:

Think about it, there are gas stations everywhere & you have the only EV charging station for the next 100 miles...... $$$ Would you charge by the khw or by the hour hmmm sounds like money in the bank as you have a captive audiance..

Unless the oil companies opened the charging stations they too could rape I mean reap the benifits of adding a charging plug by the restrooms...

 

If electric cars catch on, I can imagine that every freeway-side restaurant would offer plug-in rapid charging at a number of parking spaces... probably offer deals like "free charge with dinner for two", etc.

If you are making a long road trip, stretching your legs for an hour or two at 200+ miles while the car charges, and taking in a nice meal (paid for by the gas cost savings) might restore a little sanity to road trips.

- Bob R.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cagemo @ Jul 5 2006, 02:10 PM) [snapback]281622[/snapback]</div>

All of it excites me... and I've gotten to experience some of these cars up close and personally. The problem... as usual, is that none of them actually exist in "production" form yet. Fingers crossed... looks like Tesla is the closest to reality. Regardless, I just LOVE seeing articles like this. First time there's been hope in the EV world in too many years. The silver lining of the big auto makers not making EVs is that it finally opened the market for the little guys. The bummer is that the little guys can't make a high volume, low margin vehicle for the masses.... yet.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Leo @ Jul 5 2006, 04:36 PM) [snapback]281679[/snapback]</div>

IF you could? It has already happened! I've owned three of them, and have driven one as our main vehicle. They certainly CAN be made, the HAVE been made... and for the first vehicles of their type, they were FANTASTIC.

Well, if the car has 250 - 300 mile range, I guess you'd have to have a pretty big city to be prevented from driving it outside the city. We drive ours several hundred miles almost every weekend. We accomplish this by charging when we sleep. Turns out that the car is parked more often than it is driven. Modern EVs will not only have longer range than the cars designed in the 80's - they'll also be capable of much faster charging. Regardless of any of that - EVs are not the best vehicle for cross-country travel. Turns out that not very many of our automotive miles are done cross-country fortunately.

Of course you would NEVER be able to charge quickly at 110V and 15A. You need a special charger - simliar to but far cheaper and safer than a gasoline pump. But if you ARE staying somewhere overnight - you can plug into a 15A outlet to charge slowly just about anywhere in the world. How cool is that?

Yup. Just like you need a special gasoline pump now. Easier to build a fast charging station than to build a gasoline station, that's for certain.

I hope you can get some corrective lenses that allow you to see further. All electric vehicles are amazingly practical for many situations - commuting being the biggie. I own a Prius and an EV. We drive the EV 10x as many miles as the Prius. We don't do that to be martyrs. We do it because the EV is more practical, cleaner and more enjoyable to drive.

Don't get me wrong though - I think plug-in hybrids will be fantastic vehicles for many situations. For our secondary car, it will be darn-near ideal. But our primary vehicle will remain an EV as long as possible.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusguy04 @ Jul 5 2006, 06:24 PM) [snapback]281739[/snapback]</div>

Would be just as simple to charge for electricity as it is for gasoline. We'd just have to suffer with the much lower cost, I guess. (as well as the lower pollution, higher convenience, and satisfaction of using domestic fuel). But I also see charging stations being used as an incentive for shopping/hotel staying etc (this is already in evidence). I mean really - with a fill-up costing a couple of bucks, this isn't a huge deal. Fast charging would likely cost money since the infrastructure would be more expensive than slow-charging. But still - just about everything regarding distributing electricity is easier, safer and cheaper than distributing gasoline.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jul 5 2006, 07:56 PM) [snapback]281777[/snapback]</div>

Darell. Can you tell us how it looks like? Hope you did not sign disclosure agreement and tell us about it.
From what I heard from the rumormill, it looks a lot like an Elise, and probably cost $80k to $100k.

If that is the case, I rather get the Scion Xb if the price is still at $40k. Speaking of... any update of build dates? I only heard about them supposedly finishing up their proto finisihing end of June and doing the highway 66 thing with it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jul 6 2006, 05:09 AM) [snapback]281782[/snapback]</div>

As long as you can't quickly charge a pure EV along the road, I wouldn't call them amazingly practical for many situations.
Even for commuting to my work, it would not be acceptable for me. It sometimes happens that I have to drive >250 miles on a day for my job. And I often don't know this in advance. In addition, you never know if you will encounter a road block or any other complication that makes your route even longer.

It's simple: I want my car to be as versatile as possible, suiting all my needs. That includes driving >1000 miles in a single day.

As long as these issues not solved, EV's will never be a true alternative for the mainstream customer. That's why I think plug-in hybrids have a bright future: the can (and will) gradually move more towards electric power, with a small gas engine just in case you need it.

 

But for many thousands of others, EVs are THE perfect fit! If a product only fits one person, not alot will sell. How many have 1,000 mile days, everyday? How many have less than 50 mile days, everyday? And the vehicles are parked doing nothing for most of their lives.

For me, it works. I can see it working for a large percentage of the population.

For some, it won't be an option...but let's at least MAKE it an option.

No one vehicle can be all for all. Ooops, that IS the gasoline stranglehold, isn't it? We have no other options...well, we did, then we didn't. Now, it seems we will again.

Wow, it makes TOO much sense to have an EV...no wonder GM crushed them.

Cheers,

Curt.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vtie @ Jul 6 2006, 07:24 AM) [snapback]281977[/snapback]</div>

You are falling into the trap of, "if it isn't the right car for me, than it isn't the right car for anybody." Does a motorcycle fill all your needs perfectly? Does a motorhome fill all your needs perfectly? A pickup? A Corvette? A Hummer? A Prius? No. They all serve some purposes very well, and many, many people buy them. There are millions of people who literally NEVER drive more than 50 miles/day! There are millions more who have two cars in the family. In many situations, one of those cars does nothing but commute under 50 miles.

I fully understand that EVs are not the perfect car for every situation. They are extremly practical cars for many, many, many situations, however. And yet we don't have a choice to purchase them. Along with the "ability to fuel them along the road" comes the unfortunate side-effect have *having* to fuel them along the road. I personally find the fueling our main car in the comfort of a my garage a HUGE convenience. YMMV.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dipper @ Jul 5 2006, 11:28 PM) [snapback]281876[/snapback]</div>

Yes, it is based on the Lotus Elise... of which you can easily find pictures. I cannot show any pictures of the actual Tesla, however - until after the 20th when everybody will see it on the Teslamotors site. Cost is $100k - and for that you get a long-range Li car with astonishing acceleration that'll beat just about any gas car this side of $300k. The first Scion Xb has been completed and is undergoing testing as we speak. The second proto is almost completed.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TonyPSchaefer @ Jul 6 2006, 06:06 AM) [snapback]281932[/snapback]</div>

Thanks Tony! I find from experience that the folks who spend the time reading my site are mostly those who already believe at least a little bit in the viability of EVs. Those who are hard-set against them typically don't have the time...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vtie @ Jul 6 2006, 07:24 AM) [snapback]281977[/snapback]</div>

As I said before - I think PHEVs have a bright future as well. I'd love to have one as our secondary vehicle! And... I still see little reason to continue using gasoline as the backup power source.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(finman @ Jul 6 2006, 07:41 AM) [snapback]281985[/snapback]</div>

Ah... I see Curt already covered this! I'm on vacation and on dialup so it is tough to keep up! Folks will soon have trouble telling our coments apart, Curt!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TonyPSchaefer @ Jul 6 2006, 09:44 AM) [snapback]282067[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, that's a pretty good sound bite - and a good example of the wrong tool for the job. And it really is amazing how many folks think that if a vehicle doesn't fit their personal, specific needs (live in an appartment with no garage or power nearby, can only afford one car that has to do it all, drives a 500 mile commute regularly, etc) that the vehicle will never be practical on the market place for *anybody*. And yet we have all these examples of vehicles that are in niche-markets... and they keep getting built and sold. Often for huge prices! An SUV is a great example of a vehicle that many people think "can do it all." Yet is sucks for single-occupant commuting, and it REALLY sucks if you have to try and park it in a crowded urban parking garage.

When I offer up the fact that our main car is an EV, and it is usually MORE practical for us to use than a gas car - that info is brushed off as some crazy tree-hugger business that doesn't translate well into the real world... that somehow MY personal situation is wildly different from the general population's. Well, we're a pretty normal family of drivers that racks up about the average number of vehicle miles every year. We just do 80-90% of them without burning any gasoline. Gosh - I know plenty of folks who don't even own an automobile!

OK... that's all I've got time for now... typos and all.

Thanks again for th discussion, at least!

 

well we can debate the usefulness of the EV until the cows die of old age. who an EV would fit the need for is not the point here. what happened to choice?? its obvious by the uproar over gm's actions in their EV program that the demand is there.

but this boils down to money. why should we continue to provide $300,000 ferrari's?? sure there is a want, but very little demand (if i could afford one, i would never buy one anyway) but ferraris will be available to anyone willing to buy them. (at least they are smart enough to know what the demand is and not overbuild!!)

it is unforntunate that no one has stepped up to provide an EV option. battery tech has evolved a ton since Toyota and others have abandoned EVV's. i predicted 2 years ago when i started at Priuschat that another EV would be coming from Toyota. i still believe that but the conviction is not as strong as it once was. Toyota is famous for not releasing vehicles until they are ready, but should have heard at least an inkling by now. hard for me to believe that with the knowledge gained from the Prius that an EV has not crossed their minds

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Jul 6 2006, 11:27 AM) [snapback]282129[/snapback]</div>

Thanks for this, Dave. The point is often lost in the "An EV won't work for me because..." discussions. Many people are afraid of losing their choice to drive large gas guzzlers - and they see cars like the Prius and EVs as the "enemy" in that regard. I have no desire to take anybody else's car away - or to force them to drive an EV. I just think that we should have a choice to buy one. Those of us who already know that we can drive cleanly without cramping our style have NO choice. I can buy a gasoline car... or not. Oh, I could buy a CNG Honda that isn't gasoline. But it is still tied to fossil fuels, and even the 200-mile range CNG cars are less convenient than my 100-mile EV because I can charge the EV in WAY more places than I can fuel the CNG.

As you point out so wel - with enough money, I can go and buy just about ANY type of gas car that my little heart would desire. I can walk into a show-room and pick my color. Drive it home that day. But if I want an EV??? Sorry sir. You'll have to make one yourself or pretend that the Prius is close enough.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Jul 6 2006, 07:20 PM) [snapback]282091[/snapback]</div>

Apparently, my point did not come through very well. The fact that you *can't* recharge an EV along the road brings in the fear that you somehow buy a handicapped vehicle, or even one day you could be stranded with your EV somewhere on the road. Whether that fear is realistic or not is beside the point. The point is that this would cause most people not even to consider an EV.

All the other vehicles you mentioned are variations on the same theme. The share the same basic, familiar principles of mobility, tuned towards a certain flavor. An EV does not. Without the option of on-the-road recharge, it forces people to look at it totally different as a transportation mechanism. It doesn't matter whether or not they often drive more than 400 miles per day. What people think is that there *might* be occasions that they need to drive more, and that the EV would fall short on them, and hence they turn away from it. People have the attitude "my car is my freedom". Just the idea that, right now, they could jump in their car and drive to Alaska or Norway gives them a feeling of satisfaction, although they will perhaps never do this. And an EV right now doesn't fill in this promise.

You think about cars in a rational, objective way. But, believe me, the vast majority doesn't.

That's why I believe that plugin-hybrids provide the perfect, smooth transition to EV. You can bias them towards electricity. If it would have a 100km electric autonomy, it could be used as an EV under most normal circumstances. But having the gas engine gives people the confidence that they can still use the car in the way they are used to: use it for long distance trips, take it on vacation, etc... I'm convinced the advantages of EV's will return, but in a hybrid variation.

 

Okay, I think I see the points being made here.

It's true, driving attitudes MUST change before an EV shows up on some people's radar. Having the possiblility of doing the Alaska highway at the drop of a hat is silly and unrelaistic in these times of dwindling oil resources. Are we as a species really that short-sighted and, well, dumb??

The fact that so many are ill-informed about their driving needs and wants is obvious. I see SO many single occupant diesel full-size trucks (and not the clean diesel!) that look to never have hauled anything but the female driving them (now, what exactly are they compensating for??).

Not that there's anything wrong with a girl driving a truck...as long as they and us males are hauling/towing/utilizing the vehicle for what it was designed to do.

I'm educating people one at a time about the above issue...but, wow, it's a long road (pun intended) to getting all 280 million souls' attention in this country.

How did Europe and other countries evolve so much better than us in America? Why are we so...so irresponsible in consumption? Is it the cheap fuel? Well, that party is crashing. Is it just because we can and don't even bother to see the rest of the world consequences?

I'm as loving of this country as anyone else...but ..sheesh, we can be so pig-headed about stuff (transportation) that the rest of the world seems to have a better handle on.

Cheers,

Curt.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(finman @ Jul 7 2006, 03:51 PM) [snapback]282501[/snapback]</div>

Exactly what I was thinking. For the vast majority of the people, buying a car is a completely irrational process. In a sense, fall guilty to this as well. I drive a car that costs twice as much as some other reliable car that brings me from A to B in the same way. I purchased the 4WD option "just in case I would need it", although I virtually never need it. At least I did not buy an SUV...

A car is the ultimate icon of personal freedom, independence and mobility. That holds for SUV's, sports cars, minivans, or anything. But if you buy an EV, you have to give up that idea. I can assure you that *very* few people are prepared to do this right now (of course this forum is a biased place)

Even as a second car, the vast majority will refuse to consider it. The argument will always be "well, just in case we need to drive further...", or "you never know if you need it one day..." The environmental argument is considered totally lame by the average customer, and the price argument still isn't hurting enough. With an EV, it's like your car is linked with a 100 miles chain to your home. People don't like this idea.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(finman @ Jul 7 2006, 03:51 PM) [snapback]282501[/snapback]</div>

I live in Europe, and I'm not proud about the purchase pattern here neighter. SUV's have become very popular here as well. Silly cars like the Porsche Cayenne are hot selling. It's not as bad as in the States, but it's still bad...