What driving a hybrid will really cost you

They're still comparing the Prius to a Corolla

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tempus @ Apr 26 2006, 07:41 PM) [snapback]245822[/snapback]</div>

That's a dead giveaway that they are doing nothing but number crunching, not actually doing real-world comparisons like owners do. And those numbers take the liberty of deciding what should be included.

My parents have a Corolla. So I end up playing chauffer in it for them from time to time. The quality differences between it and Prius are surprisingly plentiful. There's all kinds of little things that those with insincere intentions could easily dismiss as something to mention in an review article... supposedly not worth paying any extra money for. But those doing comparisons in-person notice though and do mention about them being well worth it. There are some less obvious benefits from Prius too, like the idle being rather significantly smoother, than never get mentioned... but should.

Of course, how often do smog-related emissions get mentioned? That commonly gets dismissed as something no one would ever be willing to contribute some money toward with the purchase of a new vehicle.

The popular media, in general, is very disappointing. They do a terrible job of reporting hybrid information. In fact, they routinely help to spread misconceptions. That's rather scary when you think about just how much that have mislead consumers, preventing realistic solutions to some problems from being accepted. Just imagine how different the automotive market and oil situation would be now if sincere efforts to properly report hybrid information would have been done 6 years ago when Prius was first introduced in the United States. And now we have our president saying "I strongly believe hydrogen is the fuel of the future". It is a complete dismissal of hybrids, setting the focus on technology that won't be affordable or for that matter even available for quite a few years still. How the heck is that suppose to help the problems we are dealing with today?

 

Comparing Prius to a Corolla LE!! There are many standard features that Prius has but not Corolla do not. Do people really expect Prius to pay the buyer the touch screen Climate Control, Heated Mirrors, Air Bags, ABS, Traction Control, Steering Wheel buttons, etc... ? No mention of those extra features in the article at all. Have they been into both cars? They are like in completely different league. Is it because they both are Toyota, they assume the interior quality and features are the same?

I think hybrid owners are too defensive. We need to speak up very loud and go offensive. Let's compare Prius to Camry XLE V6. Hey, let's ignore the 268 hp because acceleration performance does not matter the same way they ignore the emission, smoothness and responsiveness performance. The extra standard features doesn't matter also as both are Toyota. Let's see how they stack up in 5 years:

Toyota Camry XLE V6 - $24,425
Gas Cost in 5 years for City driving (People who can afford / want to buy cars live in the city) of 75,000 miles at gas avg price of $4.50. Camry gets 22 mpg - $15,341

Toyota Prius - $21,725
Gas Cost in 5 years for City driving of 75,000 miles at gas avg price of $4.50 - $5,625

Prius will save you $12,416 in 5 years!! That means Prius will pay for the next generation Prius upgrade!! Instead of buying Camry XLE V6, buy Prius now and trade it in for a brand new 2011 Prius for free!!

Someone do the rest of the honor It is late here and would be fun to see more comparison like this!

Dennis

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Apr 26 2006, 10:49 PM) [snapback]245935[/snapback]</div>

Here's one I posted on another forum:

Here's a simple way to calculate what it costs to buy and fuel different cars that I've been using while making my decision on what economical car to buy. Take the MSRP of the vehicle, subtract the rebates or tax credits and add the estimated fuel cost for three years using EPA estimates.

Below is an example using some of the vehicles I'm personally considering due to rising fuel costs. All of the examples are as closely equipped and optioned as possible with automatic transmissions.

MSRP minus rebates and/or tax creadits:
Chevrolet Cobalt LT - $17,035 minus $500 rebate = $16,535
Chevrolet Malibu MAXX LT - $21,480 minus $750 rebate = $20,730
Ford Focus ZX5 SES - $18,435 minus $2,500 rebate = $15,935
Toyota Corolla LE - $19,403 minus $750 rebate = $18,653
Toyota Prius PK1 - $23,588 minus $3,150 tax credit = $20,438
Volkswagen Jetta TDI - $23,379 no credits or rebates = $23,379

Cost of fuel for 3yrs. at $3.50/gal. - 75% city driving:
Chevrolet Cobalt LT - $6,057
Chevrolet Malibu MAXX LT - $6,564
Ford Focus ZX5 SES - $5,832
Toyota Corolla LE - $4,923
Toyota Prius PK1 - $2,763
Volkswagen Jetta TDI - $4,374

Cost of vehicle and fuel for 3yrs.:
Chevrolet Cobalt LT - $22,592
Chevrolet Malibu MAXX LT - $27,294
Ford Focus ZX5 SES - $21,767
Toyota Corolla LE - $23,576
Toyota Prius PK1 - $23,201
Volkswagen Jetta TDI - $27,753

 

sigh! when will they get it? when talking about gasoline counterparts the Prius has NO counterpart!! this has been an old topic of debate. they can ramble all they want about the civics, accords, and camrys... but to say the Corolla LE is comparable to the Prius... that just makes me laugh out of pity that the writer doesn't know what he's talking about. the corolla.... yeah right! :angry: come to think about it... why don't we hear them talking about the savings of owning a NON-V6 counterpart of a V6 car like with the Camrys, Accords, etc. :blink: sigh!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AndrewGS @ Apr 26 2006, 11:07 PM) [snapback]245942[/snapback]</div>

Andrew, what MPG and amount of miles per year are you using to come up with your figures?

 

This is my feedback on the article, since they provided a link for it:

Interesting comparison, but I'd like see a little more on how those numbers were generated. The numbers of miles driven and the estimated gas price. For instance, the similar Consumer Reports article said they used gas prices going to $3/gal then $4/gal over a five year period, but they gave enough details that you could work out that they actually used gas prices of $2/gal for the first three years, but they didn't tell you that.

Another criticism is comparing the Prius to the Corolla. They are not similar cars, and that's beyond the extra 3" of legroom in the back of the Prius. The Prius includes items previously for luxury cars, like the low-tire-pressure sensor, a multifunction display for audio, climate control, and engine monitoring, push-button start, side-curtain airbags, CVT and LED taillights standard. Upgrade features include back-up camera, DVD/GPS navigation, etc. not available on the Corolla.

And the third thing to keep in mind - cars are not investments. They all depreciate over time. People realize this innately, and may try to justify it somehow, but basically you have a dollar range in mind that you can afford to spend, and you look for a car that has the features you want in that price range. And for some of us, those desirable features include an advanced engine and emissions system that reduce emissions beyond that reduced by just using less gas (such as with their thermos to keep engine coolant warm between trips, allowing the engine to warm up faster and run cleaner sooner on start up). People spend extra for things like A/C, AWD, automatic transmission and they aren't chastised because it "doesn't pay for itself". We're unusual indeed in that we can buy these features on a Prius and actually hope to recoup that expense.

Rob Neff
Chicagoland Prius owner"

(I know it's not really CVT, but I doubt the editor of the article would distinguish between CVT and the planetary transmission. LED taillights are new for 2006. I didn't research which cars have the low-tire-pressure sensor, but I believe that to be accurate.)

 

Of course, I wonder if they do this kind of story on, say, a Hummer or a Suburban. Just how much do those gas guzzlers really cost you? Do they do this kind of story on all vehicles or just hybrids?

 

Too simplistic and no consideration for air quality impacts and cost.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AndrewGS @ Apr 26 2006, 09:07 PM) [snapback]245942[/snapback]</div>

You need to add one more step in the analysis. Value of the car at the end of the three years. It is not a spent asset at the end of three years.

We are talking about how much equity you have at the end of three years. Subtracting that tells you what it cost to own the car for three years.

My guess is that unless you are driving excessively, the Prius will hold about 75 to 80% of value. Our 2001 Prius (five years old), with 57,000 miles held 69% of value when we sold it a few weeks ago. Paid $20,500 new, sold for $13950.

If you go on Kelly's Blue Book for a used 2004 Prius with just the safety stuff and 45,000 miles, the value on private party is $19,715 for good condition and $21,055 for execellent.

The used 2004 Carolla LE with 45,000 on KBB has a private party good condition value of $11,865 and excellent condition value of $12,770.

Approximately $8,000 difference in value at the end of three years and 45,000 miles.

Toyota Corolla LE - $23,576-$11,865=$11,711 total cost for three years, cost per month $325.30
Toyota Prius PK1 - $23,201-$19,715=$3,486 total cost with gas for three years, cost per month $96.83

(I don't know how many miles you used for your original calculation. I used 45,000 for this end of the analysis, so it may be a little off, but it does give you an idea.)

Another thing to keep in mind, even if you add back the $3,150 tax credit for the Prius, the Prius still is about $5,000 better economically over the three years.

Now, what do you think a non-hybrid, selling used three years from now, during a time in which hybrids become even more mainstream and with gas prices in the post peak oil range, is going to sell for?

I cannot believe the resell value of the Chevrolets, Ford and VW will match the best case scenario of the Carolla against the Prius.

George

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Apr 26 2006, 11:49 PM) [snapback]245935[/snapback]</div>

You jest, but this is EXACTLY the choice we made when my wife was in the market for a car last year... we had an olds POS which she hated, but it was a midsize "cruiser" car. The choices were Camry (and my sugg. was the XLE because of the consumer reports noise ratings) or the Prius as the "option".

We rented the Prius from the service department for a week ($30/day but they told us at the end not to worry about the bill) and there was no turning back.

Since then I've replaced my aging Integra GSR (again, common wisdom states "what kind of sports-car driver would choose a Prius?? The cars don't compare!") with a 2nd Prius. Guess the common wisdom ain't so wise...

Funny eh?

About your numbers... what about resale value after 5 years? I'm sure even the Camry falls below the Prius's legendary resale values

 

Well, you have to figure that mileage will improve drastically over the next five years in all cars, and there will be many, many more hybrids on the road, hybrids made from ALL car companies. Most will compare to the Prius's mpg, although I imagine not many will beat it.

If the 93mpg Prius comes out as advertised in 2008, you can kiss resale value goodbye as all Prius owners upgrade and flood the market with used ones.

I think the Prius will hold some resale value for a long time, judging by how well the Classic Prius has held up. If the new Prius runs as a brand new car even when five years old as the Classic does, it will fare decently. But then, why would you sell something that works so well? But if 60+ mpg cars become common, all bets are off.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gippah @ Apr 27 2006, 08:36 PM) [snapback]246401[/snapback]</div>

Lost perspective, eh?

Just think of what all the non-Prius non-hybrids will be selling for.

Of course, that "93" is extremely misleading since that is quite a bit higher than what it will actually be rated for using our measurement tests. Remember, the Original Prius (the pre-Classic model) tested at 66 MPG.

 

Gas is over $3 a gallon. It's not going to come down significantly and it won't stay down for any great length of time. It will go up again.

All of the naysayers need to bite the bullet and do some real math using current gas prices. Then they need to do it again at $4 a gallon and again at $5 a gallon.

Then lets see how "stupid" buying a Prius is.

Me? I'm laughing. I'm smug. I'm justified. I'm cocky. Because I bought my Prius a year ago.

 

Here here! I agree Godiva.


It is somewhat ironic to me that the vaunted CR study (I am a subscriber) used an average of $2.50 gas for the next five years. Any one want to bet on them going back and doing even a $3.50-$4 a gallon?

I tend not to brag about our mileage as much to others not that gas has gotten so expensive, but eventually they always ask and are then blown away, which is really fun to say. Does that make me smug or cocky? Maybe, but it sure is a lot of fun to have somewhat of hedge against future raises in gas prices. Even with the increase in prices, it still took less than the $24 for 510 miles a driving to fill the tank.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(micheal @ Apr 28 2006, 01:33 PM) [snapback]246727[/snapback]</div>

I must be doing something wrong then. I filled up a couple of days ago and it cost me $27 to fill the tank after I went 500 miles and the average MPG on the display said 55.5 down somewhat from a little over 56 that I was getting for most of the tank. Of course, we've had some colder weather than when I was doing 56.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(micheal @ Apr 28 2006, 01:33 PM) [snapback]246727[/snapback]</div>

I must be doing something wrong then. I filled up a couple of days ago and it cost me $27 to fill the tank after I went 500 miles and the average MPG on the display said 55.5 down somewhat from a little over 56 that I was getting for most of the tank. Of course, we've had some colder weather than when I was doing 56.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gippah @ Apr 27 2006, 08:36 PM) [snapback]246401[/snapback]</div>

I seriously question your first assumption. Hybrids are currently a tiny fraction of cars sold, and an even tinier fraction of cars being resold. This will still be true in five years, even if hybrid sales triple in that period. Also, hybrids have somewhat different design and manufacturing requirements than traditional cars, so neither Toyota nor anybody else can just up and decide to flood the market with hybrids.

Meanwhile, the American public is still largely brainwashed by the inefficient cars of the past decade: Most people think 30 mpg is amazing. Just last week somebody bragged to me that his H3 got 15 mpg in town. (I am a gentleman, and kept a straight face.) Public pressure for improved fuel economy isn't going to reach critical mass overnight.

And then there are consumers. In five years, there will be no shortage of people who can't afford a $23k new car but who want that same car used for $16-$18k. And there will be others who can afford the new car, but will settle for a used car that they can get without the wait.

So when gasoline hits $4 and $5 a gallon in the US, I predict the resale value of a Prius is going to be higher than ever, even if a vastly superior new Prius is available.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gippah @ Apr 27 2006, 08:36 PM) [snapback]246401[/snapback]</div>

I don't think so.

The same people who won't buy a hybrid now, won't buy the new 93mpg Prius because it's new, untested and they don't trust the new technology. BUT there will be people more than willing to buy a 2004-2008 Prius as a used car because they is proven technology. The market for a used Prius will be just as strong when the new models come out because people that want a Prius but can't afford a new one will buy the used ones. For them 45-50 mpg is better than the 15-25 mpg they're getting now and it will be good enough for them. And if gas is at the anticipated (by me) $5 a gallon, there won't be enough used Prii around to meet the market for used Prii. I'm not worried about resale at all. I think the Prius will hold it's value at the top of the resale list.