Volkswagen squeezes 52 miles a gallon with new Golf BlueMotion

I would have been more impressed had it not been a diesel yet it is progress nevertheless.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HBO6 @ Sep 4 2007, 10:11 AM) [snapback]506747[/snapback]</div>

Consumer Reports recently put out a best / worst buy for used cars. The VW diesel was on the poor reliability list. Corroborating that, my car pool buddy's TDI just dumped a $4,500. tranny. On the brite side though, they say the newest ones aren't as unreliable as the past few years have been.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Sep 4 2007, 09:35 AM) [snapback]506756[/snapback]</div>

In the UK VW with their Diesels are very highly rated cars, they are the same power plants used in the Audi and Seat and Skoda cars all of which have very good Diesels.

Strange

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(F8L @ Sep 4 2007, 09:19 AM) [snapback]506753[/snapback]</div>

Why is that? Is it because getting 50mpg from a diesel is not really pushing the envelope (It's not) or because you have something against diesel vehicles?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Sep 4 2007, 09:35 AM) [snapback]506756[/snapback]</div>

The difference is that you have different VW's in UK and Europe than what we have in the US. In the US the two best selling VW models are the Jetta Sedan and the New Beetle. The New Beetle and Jetta Sedan made up 85% of VW's sales in the US in 2006. These are both made at VW's Mexico assembly plant for the US market and are know to have LOTS of electrical problems. From my travels in Europe it seems that your most popular VW models are variations of the Golf and Passat both which are made in different facilities.

Also I would bet that the $4500 transaxle the poster is taking about is an automatic transaxle. In the US about 80 to 90 percent of VW's are sold with automatics. As I understand it in Europe it is the opposite and about 80% of vehicles are manual transaxles / transmissions. VW is now know for making good automatic transmissions. Come to think of it neither are BMW or Mercedes.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Sep 4 2007, 07:05 PM) [snapback]507002[/snapback]</div>

My concern is emissions. I was reading somewhere that for a similar powered engine, a diesel puts out 20-25x the pollution. I know things are supposed to get better in 2007/08 but I'm not sure how much.

So, here is an example I put together, using data from http://www.fueleconomy.gov/

2005 Jetta 2L NA Gas 5SP
24mpg, 7.7 tons CO2/yr, Tier 2 Bin 5 (non-CA), SULEVII (CA)

2005 Jetta 1.9L TDI
34mpg, 6.2 tons CO2/yr, Tier 2 Bin 10 (non-CA), not avail in CA

According to this report: http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/detailedchart.pdf
Tier 10 => NOx 0.60g/mi, NMOG 0.156g/mi, CO 4.2g/mi, PM 0.08g/mi, HCHO 0.018g/mi
Tier 5 => NOx 0.07g/mi, NMOG 0.09g/mi, CO 4.2g/mi, PM 0.01g/mi, HCHO 0.018g/mi
SULEVII=>NOx 0.02g/mi, NMOG 0.01g/mi, CO 1.0g/mi, PM 0.01g/mi, HCHO 0.004g/mi

Notice that all this data is per mile, and already takes into account the tdi's better mileage.

According to this article: http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01/23/ne...ooking-for-old/
The 2008 tdi's will meet Tier 2 bin 5.

So, comparing the 2005 tdi to the 2005 CA gas:
NOx: 30 times worse (oxides of Nitrogen -> smog)
NMOG: 15.6 times worse (Non-Methane Organic Compounds -> smog)
CO: 4.2 times worse (Carbon monoxide -> poison)
PM: 8 times worse (solid particulate matter -> lung problems)
HCHO: 4.5 times worse (formaldehyde -> lung irritant & carcinogen)
CO2: 1.19 times (19%) better (Carbon Dioxide -> global warming)

Comparing the 2008 tdi to the 2005/7 CA gas:
NOx: 3.5 times worse (oxides of Nitrogen -> smog)
NMOG: 9 times worse (Non-Methane Organic Compounds -> smog)
CO: 4.2 times worse (Carbon monoxide -> poison)
PM: equal (though I believe most gas engines are closer to 0) (solid particulate matter -> lung problems)
HCHO: 4.5 times worse (formaldehyde -> lung irritant & carcinogen)
CO2: 1.19 times (19%) better assuming same mpg (Carbon Dioxide -> global warming)

These specs don't include SOx, (oxides of sulfur -> acid rain) which are generally much worse in diesels but should be getting better in 2007+ though I don't know how much better.

This also brings up the question of biodiesel. According to this report: http://www.epa.gov/otaq/models/analysis/biodsl/p02001.pdf
Running 100% biodiesel has roughly the following affects:
NOx +10%, PM -48%, HC -67%, CO -48%

Taking this into account, the best case for 2008 tdi jetta on biodiesel:
NOx: 3.85 times worse (oxides of Nitrogen -> smog)
NMOG: 2.97 times worse (Non-Methane Organic Compounds -> smog)
CO: 4.2 times worse (Carbon monoxide -> poison)
PM: equal (though I believe most gas engines are closer to 0) (solid particulate matter -> lung problems)
HCHO: 1.49 times (49%) worse (formaldehyde -> lung irritant & carcinogen)
CO2: arguable whether its the same or better

I was seriously looking to convert my SUV to diesel to run B100 and keep it along with our Prius before I started looking at these numbers. Now I don't know what I'm going to do. I'm not convinced that doubling the gas mileage is worth the increase in pollutants even running B100.

To get somewhat back to topic, I guess my concern is even at 52mpg a tdi is going to be much dirtier than a Prius thats bigger, faster, and probably more reliable.

Rob

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Sep 4 2007, 05:05 PM) [snapback]507002[/snapback]</div>

Because it is nothing special out of a diesel. I'd like to find the weight of the vehicle and see the emissions report though.

I dislike diesels only so much as they are very dirty without the right emissions equipment and that some forms of diesel require more energy to refine. Other than that I have nothing against them. Many of my friends race their Duramax LBZ's and F350 Powerstrokes.

Create a clean burning diesel hybrid and I'd be happy. Bio-diesel would be a nice switch off petrol.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob Smith @ Sep 4 2007, 08:30 PM) [snapback]507042[/snapback]</div>

Ah, I see the problem. You and the EPA (with their Air Pollution Scores) are looking at the maximum emission allowed for the vehicles classification instead of the actual measured emissions from EPA testing. That is the problem with the EPA classification and the reason it misleads a lot of people. Diesels score poorly in one category (NOx) and because of this are placed in a much "dirtier" classification than many cars that have higher total emissions. Here is an example from 2006 (Last year for VW's TDI diesel) (http://www.epa.gov/otaq/crttst.htm)

Engine ---------------------------CO---NMOG-----NOx----PM----Total (g/m)-----Standard----2008 EPA Mileage
2.5L Gas (GVWXV02.5257)--0.41--0.0033----0.000----N/A------0.4133--------T2 B2---------19/22/28
2.5L Gas (GVWXV02.5253)--1.26--0.0290----0.029----N/A------1.3034--------T2 B5---------19/22/28
2.0L Gas (5VWXV02.0224)--0.77--0.0205----0.012----N/A------0.8025--------SULEVII-------21/24/29
1.9L TDI (6VWXV01.9238)--0.04--0.0194----0.310---0.046-----0.4154--------T2 B10--------30/33/37

The first 2.5L gasoline engine is the CARB engine sold only in the 5 states with CARB emission regulations. The second 2.5L gasoline engine is the Non-CARB sold in the remaining 45 states. The 2.0L is the gasoline turbocharged engine sold in CARB states. The 1.9L is the turbocharged diesel sold in Non-CARB states.

Notice that the TDI is 3x cleaner than the Non-CARB 2.5L gasoline engine in total emissions and gets 50% better fuel mileage but was pulled from the U.S. market for 2007 because the NOx emissions are too high. The TDI is 2x cleaner than the CARB 2.0L Turbo and gets 38% better mileage. So for 2/3 of Americans, the cleanest engine available for the 2006 VW Jetta was the TDI. If you lived in a CARB state you could get the base 2.5L gasoline engine that was 0.5% cleaner but got 50% worse mileage.

The 2006 TDI is a diesel engine that is not equipped with emission controls. No catalytic converter, no particulate filter, no Urea injection. This is a standard turbo diesel with EGR and electronic fuel injection, really not much different than when it was introduced in 1993 to the European market. Notice that even this "old tech" diesel doesn't come close to putting out the allowed pollution for it's T2 Bin10 classification. The "Clean Diesels" for 2008 will be even better when they add particulate filters and catalytic converters, but will still have NOx levels that are higher than gasoline vehicles due to the high compression ratios of diesel engines.

As an example of what is possible with the new technology, the 2007 Mercedes Benz CDI engines don't have catalytic converters but do have particulate filters. This allows the MB GL320 CDI to achieve a PM emission level of 0.003 g/m at 120K miles. That is less than the SULEVII standard.

Jason

 

"Comparing the 2008 tdi to the 2005/7 CA gas:
NOx: 3.5 times worse (oxides of Nitrogen -> smog)
NMOG: 9 times worse (Non-Methane Organic Compounds -> smog)
CO: 4.2 times worse (Carbon monoxide -> poison)
PM: equal (though I believe most gas engines are closer to 0) (solid particulate matter -> lung problems)
HCHO: 4.5 times worse (formaldehyde -> lung irritant & carcinogen)
CO2: 1.19 times (19%) better assuming same mpg (Carbon Dioxide -> global warming)

These specs don't include SOx, (oxides of sulfur -> acid rain) which are generally much worse in diesels but should be getting better in 2007+ though I don't know how much better."

So the C02 is better than a gasser (by 19%), the rest of the pollutants are not (some up to 9 times worse)??!!

Glad I drive a Prius. not sure I can recommend a new "clean" diesel when these numbers are presented. Am I missing something here? Feel free to be brutal...

Okay, so maybe I'm a bit confounded...the report that I quoted is for a certain classification of vehicle emissions, not the actual numbers (grams/mile emissions)? So if a vehicle scores high in just one pollutant (N0x, for example) it gets put into a dirty bin just for that pollutant...and the other substances are not considered?? Huh?? A little help. Is there a diesel conspiracy, along with all the other reality theories out there...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(finman @ Sep 5 2007, 10:32 AM) [snapback]507324[/snapback]</div>

The report you quoted lists the maximum levels for each Bin.

The EPA and CARB classification are based on the dirtiest pollutant. You could have a theoretical car that polluted at a T2 B10 level for NOx and had 0 emissions for all 4 other categories and the car would be classified as T2 B10.

As best I can tell the EPA Air Pollution Score is just the inverse of the Bins: Bin 11 is a 0, Bin 5 is a 6, Bin 1 is a 10, etc. It has NOTHING to do with the amount of total pollution emitted from a vehicle during EPA test procedures. That is why the T2 B5 2.5L VW is rated a 6 and the T2 B10 1.9L TDI is rated a 1 even though the actual numbers from the EPA testing show the gasoline T2 B5 rated gasoline engine actually emits 3X more total pollution that the T2 B10 rated diesel engine.

Also, most vehicle emit a small percentage of the allowed pollution by their EPA classification. You can see some examples below.

------------------------------------------CO----NMOG-----NOx------PM-------Total (g/m)
SULEVII Standard ------------------1.00---0.0100----0.020----0.01-----1.0300
2.5L Gas EPA Actual Data-----------0.41--0.0033----0.000----N/A------0.4133
The 2.5L (CARB) only emits 42% of the pollution that is allowed by the SULEVII Standard


---------------------------------------CO---NMOG-----NOx----PM----Total (g/m)
Tier 2 Bin 5 Standard-----------4.20--0.0900----0.070----0.01-----4.36
2.5L Gas EPA Actual Data------1.26--0.0290----0.029----N/A------1.3034
The 2.5L only emits 30% of the pollution that it is allowed to by the T2 Bin 5 standard


--------- -----------------------------CO---NMOG-----NOx----PM----Total (g/m)
Tier 2 Bin 10 Standard----------4.20--0.1560----0.600---0.080-----5.036
1.9L TDI EPA Actual Data-------0.04--0.0194----0.310---0.046-----0.4154
The TDI only emits 8.25% of the pollution that it is allowed to by the T2 B10 standard

So, as you can see, the EPA Air Pollution guide isn't a good way to determine how much air pollution your vehicle actually emits.

Is there a "diesel conspiracy"? Some say there is a "anti-diesel conspiracy". It is well know that some of CARB's and EPA's top people dislike diesels and the new emission regulation are specifically written for gasoline vehicles. For example, gasoline vehicles have a problem with CO. From T1 to T2 standards, the reduction in allowed CO was tiny. Diesels have a problem with NOx and Particulates. From T1 to T2 standards the reduction in allowed NOx and Particulates was huge.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Sep 4 2007, 10:36 PM) [snapback]507133[/snapback]</div>

Thanks for posting this info. It had been bothering me that all I could find were the spec numbers, not the actual measured ones. It is suprising to me that many places, including the EPA and greencar.org all seem to base their scores on the specs, not the actual numbers. For that reason I had assumed the actual numbers were not available.

Thanks again for posting the link to the real numbers, I look forward to studying them!

Rob

 

This is a pretty handy site to check the actual emissions per vehicle. UK only, but should be good for comparison purposes.

http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/

The new diesels that are going to be released for future Euro emission specs will be a lot cleaner than current ones. Some fo the new engines are already available and data on this site.

See Euro V proposed specs fro diesel and gas engines (remember it is in g per kmnot mile like in the US). It allows slightly more HC+NOx for diesels, but they have to produce half the CO. Looks like a pretty fair trade off. CO2 is pretty much dependant on the gas mileage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_emission_standards

So diesels getting Euro V will be mcuh cleaner in all aspects.

I would expect to see more diesels in the US in the future.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jhinton @ Sep 4 2007, 10:36 PM) [snapback]507133[/snapback]</div>

Ok, so lets follow this to the next logical conclusion

2006 Prius

Engine ---------------------------CO---NMOG-----NOx----PM----Total (g/m)-----Standard----2008 EPA Mileage
1.5L Gas (6TYXV01.5MC1)-----0.1---0.009----0.01-----N/A-----0.119----------SULEVII-------48/46/45

It will be interesting to see what the 2008 tdi numbers are like....

Rob

 

I'm also not sure just adding all the numbers up is the right way to composite. That assumes every type of emission is equally bad. The composite the EPA seems to measure is the HC-NM+NOX-xxxx. I assume this is Hydrocarbon (non-methane) + NOx (test method: COMP, US06, SC03, etc). Strangely this doesn't seem to just be the NMOG number + the NOx number, so I'm not sure how they are measuring this. I assume this number is considered important as these are the components that mix to form smog.

HC-NM+NOx-COMP:
2006 Jetta Tdi: 0.748g/mi
2005 Jetta 2L t: 0.029-0.041g/mi (US06/SC03, can't find COMP)
2006 Jetta 2.5L: 0.002g/mi
2006 Prius: 0.03g/mi (US06 = 0.03, SC03 = 0.04)

Using these numbers, tdi is much worse off than the gas models. The 2.5L 5cyl is pretty darn impressive. Keep in mind though at only 22mpg (2008 mixed), it puts out a lot more CO2 than the Tdi or Prius. The tdi will have to have much lower NOx to meet Bin 5, so it should help get this score down but its still hard to imagine it getting as low as the others. I guess we'll see in a few months!

Rob

 

Here's one data point for the new BlueMotion diesel (bear in mind this is a smaller vehicle with a smaller engine):

http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/ve...ls.asp?id=19906

2007? VW Polo BlueMotion 1.4L tdi
NOx: 0.365 g/mi
CO: 0.382 g/mi
HC: N/A
PM: 0.000g/km (thats pretty impressive!)
HC+NOx: 0.414 g/mi

Still got a long way to go on NOx to make Tier 2 Bin 5 spec of 0.07g/mi.

For comparison, here is the 1.4L gas version (note CO2 about 50% worse):
http://www.vcacarfueldata.org.uk/search/ve...ls.asp?id=18841

NOx: 0.0258 g/mi
CO: 0.312 g/mi
HC: 0.0789 g/mi
PM: N/A
HC+NOx: N/A

And the English specs on the Prius:

NOx: 0.0161 g/mi
CO: 0.289 g/mi
HC: 0.0322 g/mi
PM: N/A
HC+NOx: N/A

Rob

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rob Smith @ Sep 6 2007, 01:58 PM) [snapback]508047[/snapback]</div>

First the VW Golf is not much smaller than the Prius.

EPA Interior Volume (Cubic Feet):
Golf 109.0
Prius 112.3

Second, the VW BlueMotion diesels introduced in Europe are not the new common-rail TDI engine but still use the old PD engine. (Europe has had a 2.0L TDI for several years while the U.S. has still used the 1.9L TDI) They do have particulate filters (that's why it has 0.0 PM) but doesn't have NOx after-treatments because it is not required to meet Euro emission standards.

The pinnacle of new diesel emission technology will be introduced in 2008 for the US market because CARB has the most aggressive diesel emission standards in the world. (Well besides Brazil where diesel passenger cars are outright banned)

 

My understanding is that for Euro V NOx will have to be 0.18g/km for 2009 and then Euro VI will be 0.08g/km for diesels. SO it is on the same track as Tier2Bin5, just runnign somewhat behind (although Tier2 is in g/mi).

They might as well just clean up the NOx to Tier2Bin5 and get on with it. Saves them the trouble down the line in Europe anyway. Rumer was that a number of the new clean diesels will meet it anyway, and be ready fro 08/09

I also understand NOx to be the gas most associated with smog, thus the stringent control on it in the US.

All in all it drives progress. I remeber the car manufacturers complainign when leaded gas got kicked out, all sorts of power/economy reasons were given. Yet today the new cars run fine without lead and are a lot more powerful to boot as well.

 

Here are some more comparisons, to try and get some insight on the 2007+ diesels:

Data from http://www.epa.gov/otaq/crttst.htm

2007 Mercedes E320 Bluetec @ 50k miles/120k miles (not low sulfur diesel?)
NOx: 0.103 / 0.12 g/mi
CO: 2.62 / 3.27 g/mi
NMOG: 0.0503 / 0.0666 g/mi
PM: 0.004 / 0.003 g/mi
total: 2.78 / 3.46 g/mi
HC-NM+NOX-COMP: XXX / 0.169 g/mi (US06 @4k miles = 0.74)
2008 EPA mpg: 23/26/32

2007 Mercedes E350 gas CA @ 150k miles
NOx: 0.01 g/mi
CO: 0.24 g/mi
NMOG: 0.0066 g/mi
PM: N/A
total: 0.257 g/mi
HC-NM+NOX-US06: 0.01 g/mi (@4k miles)
2008 EPA mpg: 217/19/24

2007 Camry Hybrid CA @150k miles
NOx: 0 g/mi
CO: 0.1 g/mi (federal @120k miles = 0)
NMOG: 0.006 g/mi
PM: N/A
total: 0.106 g/mi
HC-NM+NOX-COMP: 0.01 g/mi (federal @120k miles)
2008 EPA mpg: 33/34/34

2006 Honda Accord Hybrid CA @150k miles
NOx: 0.02 g/mi
CO: 0.3 g/mi (federal @120k miles = 0)
NMOG: 0.009 g/mi
PM: N/A
total: 0.329 g/mi
HC-NM+NOX-COMP: 0.04 g/mi (federal @120k miles)
2008 EPA mpg: 22/25/31

2007 Lexus GS450h CA @120k miles
NOx: 0.01 g/mi
CO: 0.1 g/mi (federal @120k miles = 0)
NMOG: 0.008 g/mi
PM: N/A
total: 0.118 g/mi
HC-NM+NOX-COMP: 0.02 g/mi (federal @120k miles)
2008 EPA mpg: 22/23/25

Summary:

2007 Mercedes Bluetec diesel seems like big improvement over older diesels, but still way behind the gas vehicles on emissions. CO2 reduction could be compelling compared to non-hybrids, but hybrids erase the CO2 difference and seem much better on everything else. Maybe VW will do better?

vehicle---------------Total Em(g/mi)---HC-NM+NOX-COMP(g/mi)----2008 EPA Mix MPG
Mercedes E320BT-----3.46----------------------0.169-----------------------26--------------
Mercedes E350--------0.25----------------------0.01------------------------19--------------
Camry Hybrid---------0.106---------------------0.01------------------------34--------------
Accord Hybrid---------0.329---------------------0.04------------------------25--------------
Lexus GS450h---------0.118---------------------0.02------------------------23--------------

Rob

 

Here is the SUV version:

2007 Mercedes GL320 CDI 4MATIC, Federal @ 120k miles w/ low sulfur diesel
NOx: 0.48 g/mi
CO: 0.04 g/mi
NMOG: 0.0032 g/mi
PM: 0.003 g/mi
total: 0.555 g/mi
HC-NM+NOX-COMP: 0.99 g/mi
2008 EPA mpg: 18/20/23

2007 Mercedes GL450 4.6L Gas, Federal @120k miles
NOx: 0.022 g/mi
CO: 0.73 g/mi
NMOG: 0.0222 g/mi
PM: N/A g/mi
total: 0.7742 g/mi
HC-NM+NOX-COMP: 0.05 g/mi
2008 EPA mpg: 13/15/17

2007 Jeep Grand Cherokee 3L CDI, Federal @ 120k miles w/ low sulfur diesel
NOx: 0.5 g/mi
CO: 0 g/mi
HC-NM: 0.003 g/mi
PM: 0 g/mi
total: 0.503 g/mi
HC-NM+NOX-COMP: 0.94 g/mi
2008 EPA mpg: 18/20/23 (2WD)

2006 Jeep Liberty 2.8L CDI, Federal @ 100k miles w/ old non-low sulfur diesel
NOx: 0.5 g/mi
CO: 0.7 g/mi
HC-NM: 0.062 g/mi
PM: 0.04 g/mi
total: 1.302 g/mi
HC-NM+NOX-COMP: 1.24 g/mi
2008 EPA mpg: 19/21/23 (4WD)

2007 Ford Escape Hybrid, Federal @ 120k miles
NOx: 0.02 g/mi
CO: 0.1 g/mi
NMOG: 0.006 g/mi
PM: N/A
total: 0.126 g/mi
HC-NM+NOX-COMP: 0.01 g/mi
2008 EPA mpg: 31/30/29 (FWD)

2007 Lexus RX400h 4WD, Federal 120k miles
NOx: 0.01 g/mi
CO: 0 g/mi
NMOG: 0.007 g/mi
PM: N/A
total: 0.017 g/mi
HC-NM+NOX-COMP: 0.02 g/mi
2008 EPA mpg: 27/26/25 (4WD)

Can't find Highlander Hybrid numbers?

Summary:

vehicle---------------Total Em(g/mi)---HC-NM+NOX-COMP(g/mi)----2008 EPA Mix MPG
Mercedes GL320 CDI---0.555--------------------0.99------------------------20------------
Mercedes GL450--------0.774--------------------0.05------------------------15------------
Jeep Grand Ch CDI----0.503--------------------0.94-------------------------20-----------
Jeep Liberty CDI--------1.302--------------------1.24------------------------21------------
Ford Escape Hybrid-----0.126--------------------0.01------------------------30------------
Lexus RX400h-----------0.017--------------------0.02------------------------26------------

Rob