I'm thinking this would be an interesting challenge - I wonder if there is any interest. What some TDI drivers are willing to do is to see which car does better on fuel efficiency: a TDI or a Prius. There are a few routes that we have come up with that would be interesting places for such a drive. One is I-70 from Denver to Grand Junction and back. Another is I-15 from Las Vegas to San Bernadino and back. A third is I-35 from the Minneapolis area to Des Moines and back. Yet another is from the Philadelphia area to about 200 miles away on the interstate and back. The challenge was made to someone at the Sierra Club; as yet, no response. Hence, the offer comes here.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vikingrob @ Mar 30 2006, 09:33 PM) [snapback]232725[/snapback]</div> We've got a pretty good relationship with one of the big TDI web sites where they invited us to participate in their monthly MPG contest. I'm sure some of those guys would be up for it...they can turn out some pretty impressive numbers with those things! Anyone remember that exact group? I'll try to find it tomorrow.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vikingrob @ Mar 30 2006, 07:33 PM) [snapback]232725[/snapback]</div> I am not near any of those routs. I would not want to compare a freeway route with a diesel. I want a cold start. In town route. Hilly terrain, under 35 mph. Each gets 3 gallons on an empty tank on a closed loop. Bring them on!
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hdrygas @ Mar 30 2006, 11:14 PM) [snapback]232787[/snapback]</div> I would start both cars with full tanks. The TDI uses fuel as a lubricant before it burns it, and I'm not interested in damaging vehicles by running out of fuel. I think 400 miles on the interstate would be a good test and should be well within one-tank range for both a TDI and a Prius. I'm also thinking that there should be two people in each car and some other weight as far as a load is concerned, and also recharge the battery on a laptop computer during the trip. Another test course could be to criscross Phoenix on its surface arterials.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vikingrob @ Mar 31 2006, 06:03 AM) [snapback]232843[/snapback]</div> While I agree with starting with full tanks then each filling at the end of the run to calculate mileage, I have to say that having either 2 runs...one rural/city and one HWY would make more sense so you could see a fair comparison of each vehicles strengths and weaknesses. I have to say though, I have no idea what the point of recharging a laptop battery would be? What are you thinking that would contribute?
The TDI would win every one of those courses. No Problem. On the interstate, the Prius engine would never have the opportunity to shut down. Every one of those courses is geared towards vehicles that excel at interstate driving. I think an appropriate test of mileage would include a blend. There should be equal miles of stop-n-go city driving as there is interstate. I'm not saying the Prius would win, I'm just saying that there's a reason the EPA provides numbers for both scenarios.
Here it is Fred's TDI site....a like to the Fuel Economy Forum: http://forums.tdiclub.com/forumdisplay.php?f=24
This test has been conducted by many car magazines and other enthusiast sites. Everytime the Prius comes out on top. Don't forget to factor in the premium cost for diesel fuel. In my part of the country there is a 50cent spread.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(djasonw @ Mar 31 2006, 07:04 AM) [snapback]232866[/snapback]</div> I can tell you Vegas to San Bernadino and back hit about 44 MPG. Was going 75-80, cruise control on, and was windy out. Had 3 people in car as well. I drove like "regular" car just to see how it would come out. No pulsing/gliding, no "effeciency driving" at all. Was nice to know that if I dont want to go to the effort of great mileage, just "regular" is mid-40's! If TDI can do that, great. But I have no interest in MORE expnsive fuel like diesel. But does it pollute more? Yes. Does it have quick pick up from stop? no. And while drivin 400+ mile round trip, does it feel nice in leather seats, 9-spk JBL stereo, and Nav system????
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vikingrob @ Mar 30 2006, 11:33 PM) [snapback]232725[/snapback]</div> That has already been done... over 1,200 miles of side-by-side driving, 4 consecutive days in summer of 2002 in Minnesota. See: http://john1701a.com/prius/hybrid-road-rally.htm Needless to say, the Classic Prius got better MPG than the Automatic TDI.
It's been a couple of months ago, but on a trip along I-70 from Dalhart, TX to Denver the mpg was 47.9 mpg. This did include some going through a couple of small towns, but most of it was at highway speeds (100 miles at 70mph) or interstate speeds (250 miles at 75mph). On the way back, I don't have the receipt, but it was around 50mpg with driving some around Denver and back to Raton, NM. The Denver driving actually hurt the mpg as they were short trips. Drove at speed limit on I-70 on the way back as well. These trips include two good sized people and all of our Christmas stuff. Evan, myself, and another did post in the FE challenge thread at tdiclub.com. I only did it for a month, October, as I only did it to prove a point. I was number 7, engunner was 10 and Evan was 14 out of 56 drivers. The average for the month was 49.14 mpg, all of us were over 53mpg. The thread is here. It would have been interesting if some of the hypermilers over at greenhybrid had posted their mpg (especially if silk shorts had posted his/her 71.8 lifetime mpg). I only spent about a week and a half looking/posting at tdiclub, I already spend too much time on PC and another message board. Personally, I don't want to have a car that it's fuel is more expensive (10cents to 30cents higher), have to worry about finding stations in town that have diesel, get significantly worse mileage in the city, but only comparable mileage on the interstate. Plus, I still think that CA and other places aren't selling diesels for a legitimate reason (emissions wise).
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TonyPSchaefer @ Mar 31 2006, 07:56 AM) [snapback]232861[/snapback]</div> Maybe King of Prussia out some distance on Long Island (say, Riverhead) might be a reasonable idea - the problem though is to time it so it can be completed in a reasonable amount of time. Oh, and one of those interested is Ernie Rogers, who has this huge spoiler on the back of his Beetle. Another possible course is from Duluth to Ely, MN, using highways 35, 61, and 1. The start would be at the Boundary Avenue exit on I-35, then down the Thompson Hill grade into Duluth, including some city driving (several miles of 30 mph speed limit), small town stop-and-go, then a twisting, turning route to Ely, then back to Duluth the way we came. Definitely a scenic drive.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(djasonw @ Mar 31 2006, 08:04 AM) [snapback]232866[/snapback]</div> I don't think that 50¢ spread will be around much longer. Per the AAA Fuel Gauge Report (www.fuelgaugereport.com), the spread as of today is down to 13¢ for a nationwide average. According to TwinCitiesGasPrices.com, for gasoline, the highest of the low prices is $2.48 and the lowest of the high is $2.69. For diesel, the highest of the low prices is $2.53 and the lowest of the high is $2.64. Midpoints for both would be $2.59 a gallon. (Update 4/7/06: The spread in national averages is down to 9¢ per gallon.)
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Mar 31 2006, 07:55 AM) [snapback]232860[/snapback]</div> A modest electrical load.
Seems like an apples to oranges test anyway. How about a miles per BTU test or BTUs per mile test instead of miles per gallon? That would be a more realistic "efficiency" test. Quick google search appears to show diesel has about 10% higher BTU content than gasoline, so even if Jetta "wins", it wouldn't necessarily be because it is a more "efficient" car.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(mini2prius @ Mar 31 2006, 09:24 PM) [snapback]233244[/snapback]</div> OK, how about miles per unit of fossil fuel?
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vikingrob @ Apr 1 2006, 01:43 AM) [snapback]233332[/snapback]</div> All I'm saying is that it isn't an accurate comparison of efficiency - its really no different than if I were to challenge a Civic Hybrid to a similar mileage test, wherein it would use regular gas and I would use a winter blend (oxygenated). Even if the Civic "wins," the results are meaningless because it isn't an apples to apples comparison.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(vikingrob @ Mar 31 2006, 01:17 PM) [snapback]232983[/snapback]</div> I've driven from the Northern suburbs of Philadelphia to central Long Island quite a number of times on business. In summer temps, I get around 58 mpg, in really cold winter temps, I get 53 mpg. (My normal commute gives me about 52 in the summer and 43 in the winter) The 30 minutes of stop and go traffic between the Goethels and the Verrazano bridges would really kill the TDI's milage.
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Apr 3 2006, 07:36 AM) [snapback]234095[/snapback]</div> Yep, I think East Coast traffic would really favor the Prius over the TDI. I've been in a few west coast traffic jams, but none so long as on the Bronx side of the Washington Bridge, the bridges to the outer banks in South Carolina or suspended mid-air over Boston's Big Dig. D.C.'s traffic is back down to 3rd worst in the nation, so I'd recommend it along with L.A. and San Francisco as the urban part of the challenge - http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5050900408.html Dave
