1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Toyota's public position on climate change

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by Bob Levitt, Mar 12, 2005.

  1. Bob Levitt

    Bob Levitt New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2005
    5
    0
    0
    From: Bob Levitt <[email protected]>
    Date: Fri Mar 11, 2005 9:12:06 AM US/Pacific
    To: [email protected]
    Cc: Mary Ann <[email protected]> (another Prius owner)
    Subject: Re: Toyota's Position on the California Global Warming Regulation

    Hello Folks,

    Thank you for this e-mail response. I wish it wasn't so disheartening. I'm a Prius owner myself
    and, obviously, I appreciate and support Toyota's hybrid technology effort. However, I'm aware
    of the "emission credits" that factor into your mass-marketing of hybrids, and, further, I'm aware
    of the intensely aggressive effort Toyota has put into undermining new regulations, state AND
    federal, so I can only shake my head in frustration and sorrow as I read your self-heralding.

    If Toyota continues to believe that what it's presently doing is "enough" because it is "one
    of the best environmental records in the industry", you ( like all the rest of us who COULD
    be doing MORE - but AREN'T ) will go down in the tragic history of global warming's impact
    on Earth, as self serving, self deluding pretenders........the one's with the "better records".
    In the time when OUR cars killed Life.

    Please, fellow humans with children who will have children, serve the bottom line, if you must,
    but GET REAL as you do it.


    All best wishes, Bob Levitt

    On Thursday, March 10, 2005, at 06:13 PM, [email protected] wrote:

    Thank you for contacting Toyota and please know that we share your concern
    about climate
    change. That is why we’ve been a leader in hybrid technology and we were
    the first company to
    introduce a mass-market hybrid vehicle, the Prius, in 1997. In April 2005
    we will introduce the
    Lexus RX 400h, followed shortly by the Toyota Highlander Hybrid, and next
    year, the Lexus GS
    hybrid. We believe that hybrid technology plays a vital role in addressing
    greenhouse gases.

    But when it comes to California’s attempt to establish new regulations to
    reduce greenhouse
    gas emissions through changes in motor-vehicle fuel economy, we have
    serious concerns.
    The increased fuel economy requirements are drastic even for Toyota, which
    has one of the
    best environmental records in the industry. For consumers, this would lead
    to higher-priced
    vehicles and fewer model choices. The added cost to consumers, by some
    estimates, may
    average as much as $3,000 per vehicle. And, as for choice, the only
    vehicles we currently make
    that would meet the ultimate rules are our Prius and our manual
    transmission Echo. We
    recognize that a large number of our customers need different vehicles for
    their lifestyles and
    we would like to continue to meet those needs.

    Global warming is a genuine concern for our society, and Toyota vows to be
    part of the solution.
    The California rule has an admirable goal, but we feel it takes the wrong
    approach. Any solution
    must take at least a national approach, or it may threaten economic growth
    while having little
    impact on the problem.

    Toyota will continue to work with others, including California and federal
    regulators, government
    representatives, academic leaders, the industry, and environmentalists to
    seek innovative
    solutions to the problem of global warming. And we will continue developing
    and expanding
    pioneer technology that will lead the way to future environmental
    advancements.

    Please know that we value your input, and we appreciate your feedback and
    the time you’ve
    taken to contact us.
     
    #1 Bob Levitt, Mar 12, 2005
  2. Jerry P

    Jerry P Member

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2003
    322
    18
    0
    Location:
    Waterford, PA
    Vehicle:
    2021 Prius
    Model:
    XLE AWD-e
    While the Toyota response may be disheartening to some, I think that they have at least made a better-than-average attempt to produce vehicles that help the situation. I'm certain that if you look at the record of other car companies (perhaps with the exception of Honda), their records are far worse.

    In the overal scheme of things, cars are a large contributor to overall pollution, but individuals can make a difference, though not always in a good way. You can have 1000 Prii running on a freeway along with one very out-of-tune 1965 Chevy, spewing black smoke for miles, and the 'good' efffect of the Prii is nonexistant as long as that Chevy is allowed to stay on the road. Requiring stricter emission testing of individual vehicles will solve the problem faster than requiring the car makers to produce cleaner running cars. Even in this area, where road salt usually limits a car's useful life to maybe 15 years max., there are a lot of older, very poorly maintained cars on the road. The emission testing mandated by PA in this area is useless - they test your gas cap and charge you $30. Hook up some of those older cars to a real testing unit and they would be off the road.

    There are two ways to make the manufacturers change - legislation and making the market demand a change. The great demand for the Prius has been a wake-up call to the manufacturers that the market wants a change. Ask Ford and GM about the market change in SUVs. Tighter emission testing would make the consumers demand a cleaner product. I am afraid the 'global warming' debate will go on in this country until it is too late. Individuals have to make decisions here to do something about this themselves - wether that involves buying a hybrid or getting their old daily beater car a good tune-up.
     
    #2 Jerry P, Mar 12, 2005
  3. Bob Levitt

    Bob Levitt New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2005
    5
    0
    0
    Warrior in the Battle, I agree with you that Toyota has "...made a better-than-average attempt to PRODUCE VEHICLES that help the situation." ( Emphasis mine).

    My concern is about HOW those produced vehicles - the hybrids - are "at play" in Toyota's OVERALL manufacturing and marketing strategies.

    If hybrids are "fronting" in an overall strategy that
    includes aggressive undermining of legislation and an
    INCREASE in allowable "gross negative impact" vehicles
    then, it seems to me, that we Prius owners need to be
    aware of that and need to encourage Toyota to do LESS
    of what's making things worse as they do MORE of what's making things better.

    I also agree with you that legislation and market demand are the two ways manufacturers change, but if we hybrid "demanders" are the sacrificial "front pieces" in a game of aggressive undermining of legislation and gross producing of negative impact vehicles, we need to IMPROVE our position by increasing - broadening -
    our demand for Toyota to play the REAL DEAL game. Above board. And for keeps. Don't you think?
    Bob Levitt
     
    #3 Bob Levitt, Mar 12, 2005
  4. Frank Hudon

    Frank Hudon Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2004
    4,147
    19
    0
    the average motor vehicle buyer just doesn't give a shit about the enviroment. Plain and as simple as that. I preach about it at work all the time and get blank stares. If you think the automakers can exist on the total number of hybrid and other zero emission vehicles you need to give your head a shake. It won't change. I'm to the point of giving up. Why care if your 1/1,000,000 of 1 percent that do, your the ant in front of the steam roller. Drive a hybrid and save your money for better things. Like your cyanide pills when the air is so thick you can't breath any more. Mankind is too far down the road to change anything important now. sorry for being so glum but that's my take on the whole thing.
     
    #4 Frank Hudon, Mar 12, 2005
  5. V8Cobrakid

    V8Cobrakid Green Handyman

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2004
    3,790
    152
    0
    Location:
    Park View, Los Angeles, CA. U.S.A
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Just do your part.

    I wish Toyota would make new electric vehicles. The demand would be small, but the performance of an electric vehicle can be really good. I mention this because most people are obsessed with performance.

    Do your Part...

    drive your hybrid

    Install Solar for you home ( if possible )

    these two items alone will help a good deal. It's not about the impact that happens right away.. it's the influence you give to others who are younger than you. You give them the green cars and electricity, they will use it. Don't rely on the companies.
     
    #5 V8Cobrakid, Mar 12, 2005
  6. Bob Levitt

    Bob Levitt New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2005
    5
    0
    0
    When I found PriusChat.com, joined up, and posted Toyota’s E-mail that spells out their PUBLIC position on climate change - and my E-mail answer back - I wanted to learn what other “Prius people†are thinking about “all thisâ€.

    I’ve learned a LOT from reading through other subjects in this
    forum, and, right here, the responses received so far add a lot to think about. I’m hoping for more.

    Like Frank Hudon, I believe that “the average motor vehicle
    buyer just doesn’t give a shit about the environmentâ€, but I
    don’t agree that “It won’t change.†It IS changing. That’s why
    I’m so interested in what OTHER Prius people think about Toyota’s FULL ROLE in the change; how and why Toyota PROMOTES and UNDERMINES change at the same time.

    And more to the point of that inquiry; how we, “ the changingâ€, can INCREASE Toyota’s POSITIVE impact on Earth’s climate and DECREASE their NEGATIVE impact. THAT’s the question I’m hoping this forum can contribute answers to.

    On a personal note, I, ( and almost everyone I know ), can empathize with the glumness that comes with thinking that “Mankind is too far down the road to change anything important now.â€.

    None the less, and ALL the MORE, it’s the love I have for life - including my sorrow for all that we suffer - that keeps me in struggle, working on, searching for, and rejoicing in the remedies that may - or may not - stop the “steam rollerâ€.

    In Emergency Medical Services I learned that the WORST incidents could be the “BEST†incidents for “giving it our bestâ€. Sometimes, it seems, overwhelming circumstances and odds DO THAT. The “outcome†is another, down the road matter.

    Facing the disastrous consequences of climate change, I believe that the MAJORITY of us, if we’re informed and organized, can - and will - do our REAL best. All the good hearted people at Toyoto included.

    In this forum’s tiny place within the BIG (climate catastrophe) INCIDENT, I’m hoping that Prius people might “put together†something that will influence a MORE HONEST and, thereby,
    MORE EFFECTIVE response to climate change from TOYOTA.
     
    #6 Bob Levitt, Mar 13, 2005
  7. Frank Hudon

    Frank Hudon Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2004
    4,147
    19
    0
    Toyota's reason for supporting the NA automakers law suite against California has to do with their attempt to usurp federal law on the regulation of the emissions from automobiles. After all they are a member of the NA auto manufactures association, and what California is doing will impact there bottom line. They by joining will make the laws apply to the whole NA market, not just Ca. If you want to blame the CAFE rules look to Honda and the Insight, they sold 5 in November last year but won't discontinue the production because it's the most fuel efficient vehicle in NA and contributes to their CAFE rating.
     
    #7 Frank Hudon, Mar 13, 2005
  8. prius04

    prius04 New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2004
    1,161
    0
    0
    Location:
    NorthEast USA
    The current federal government clearly cares more about what happens in the bedroom than in the boardroom. If they could kill all CAFE standards they would and proceed to drill for oil all over the place.

    Thus, it takes states like California to keep the heat on. Thank you California for doing what the feds used to do, look out for us regular people.

    And although the argument certainly sounds persuasive that all these companies want is that the country have one standard, we all know what the real goal is -- or at least the reality based people know -- and that is to keep the standards weak so as not to interfere with GM --and others that want to build monster vehicles -- profits.

    So again, thank you California.

    But I'm not convinced that this is why Toyota joined this suit. Could Toyota's plan be to keep the CAFE standards lowish nationwide as part of a stealth campaign? It seems to me that Toyota is in a unique position to meet any California standard for many years to come. Think about it, if GM and others continue to focus on gas guzzling and dirty behemoths while Toyota makes gas sipping clean vehicles, who will be in a better position when oil breaks $100 per barrel? Conversely, if GM and others are forced to make sippers that are cleaner NOW, Toyota won't be in as great a position when that $100 per barrel day comes.

    Now I have no doubt that GM can be this machiavellian, but could Toyota?
     
    #8 prius04, Mar 13, 2005
  9. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    13,439
    641
    0
    Location:
    Winnipeg Manitoba
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Frank:

    Oh boy have you got *that* right!

    Unless you create some sort of Draconian society where the ruling party can tell everybody what to do and what to think, then maybe you could get away with it. Although I always find it ironic that the Command Economies of the world have the *worst* environmental record of all.

    There is a very simple solution to this "problem" that will allow consumers to actively demand change: raise the price of gasoline 10% per month.

    After 2 years or so, folks will be giving away their gas guzzling SUV's and getting into bidding wars over Prius cars.
     
    #9 jayman, Mar 13, 2005
  10. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    13,439
    641
    0
    Location:
    Winnipeg Manitoba
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Oh, I also guarantee that any political party in North American that *does* implement such a gas tax increase will have their a** booted out the next election.

    So if folks want to truly "change" things they had better get off their a** and prove it. IOW walk the walk and talk the talk.
     
    #10 jayman, Mar 13, 2005
  11. Indy

    Indy New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2005
    30
    0
    0
    Location:
    Indianapolis, Indiana, USA
    Excellent thread with interesting posts!

    As one living in the reddest of red states with a, shall we say, Hummer-friendly population (who, ironically, also support the bedroom focus of the government), I confess to a certain fatalism.

    Nevertheless, kindness being its own reward, even if I think that there is no hope, I will continue to do my best to change things.

    I believe almost everyone here shares my outlook, so I am preaching to the choir. But, perhaps not on this point: Toyota is not a philanthropic organization. Just because they have developed this wonderful car that so beautifully caters to our market niche does not mean that they believe in the ethics behind our motivations to buy their product. They are simply a collection of people trying to make profit.

    The responsibility to affect the change we desire lies with us - the way we live our lives, the things we communicate, and the issues for which we choose to express out political power. So, when companies seek to subvert the intentions of our elected representatives, we must act to bolster their positions and to strengthen their backbones.

    I wish the best of luck to the people of California in their fight for lower emissions. All of us will benefit when you succeed.
     
    #11 Indy, Mar 13, 2005
  12. Frank Hudon

    Frank Hudon Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2004
    4,147
    19
    0
    remember Joe Clark the what was it, 28 day prime minister. Raise the gas tax.....boot.
     
    #12 Frank Hudon, Mar 13, 2005
  13. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2004
    13,439
    641
    0
    Location:
    Winnipeg Manitoba
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Oh geez, I almost forgot about the "one month wonder." Ole what's-his-name, right on the tip of my tongue ... mumbly joe ...

    Joe found himself in the same position Martin is now in, with a Minority government. A real nasty boo-boo, and you're one Non Confidence Vote from obscurity.
     
    #13 jayman, Mar 13, 2005
  14. Bob Levitt

    Bob Levitt New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 12, 2005
    5
    0
    0
    As I think about all that's being said, I find myself wanting what I always
    seem to want at this stage of any good discussion about critical matters ; more people involved and a good plan of action. I'm hoping that you Senior Prius Posters will share your advice and opinions about how we might use this amazing ( to me) site to shed MORE light on this subject
    to MORE "Prius people" in a way that could lead to some ACTION .

    I've got a "raw idea" myself and I'll share it with you all by doing the "COPY" and "PASTE" thing following these words. It's only a "working gist" of an idea but enough to see what you all think about it; how you think it could be developed, what REAL direction it could take, what SPECIFIC information its DEVELOPED FORM would feature, what info would best inform and motivate Prius people to take action, what action that would be, what would get the most attention; all these questions
    directly related to this topic - WELL WORTH ANSWERING I think.
    I really appreciate this forum, being a part of this thread, and getting to know you all. All the best, Bob Raw Idea follows.

    PriusOwnersWho Won’tObfuscateWithout PROTEST !

    TOYOTA is using their hybrids to promote themselves as “GREEN â€
    while doing everything they can to UNDERMINE and DEFEAT
    CLEAN AIR EMISSION STANDARDS.

    Don’t let YOUR PRIUS be USED by TOYOTA
    to OBFUSCATE THE TRUTH !

    Join the POW WOW PROTEST and tell TOYOTA
    that you won’t be a green pawn in their DIRTY AIR GAME :

    making hybrids with one hand

    fighting clean air regulations with the other !

    Please join the POW WOW PROTEST in the Environmental Forum
    at priuschat.com

    ************************************************************

    That's the raw idea. But it doesn't LOOK as "nice" here as it does on my
    big screen all layed out in strong, clear colors, with various size type, etc. But you get the idea; a "POW WOW" place and protest for Prius people to come to, inform themselves, and then act - in SOME yet to be determined way - directly TO/ON TOYOTA. I'm looking forward to your replys. Bob
     
    #14 Bob Levitt, Mar 14, 2005
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)