Toyota's Bid for a Better Battery

Yes, that is interesting. Didn't GM say the only thing stopping production of the Volt was lack of a battery? Perhaps...a Lithium Ion battery? (And I'm not giving them $500 million on top of the $1.5 billion they already got for the Smart Car. If Toyota can do it without subsidies, so can GM.)

Now as soon as I hear about color and side signal mirrors I can decide whether to trade in my car for a 2009 or keep it until the HOV stickers expire.

I wonder if the 2013 will be plug in?

 

I wonder if they'll make a Li-Ion replacement battery for the Prius II, along with a software upgrade sometime in the future?

I don't anticipate needing a replacement battery for my '07 Prius anytime soon, so there's no rush...

Harry

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Earthling @ Feb 25 2007, 10:15 AM) [snapback]396185[/snapback]</div>

I would suspect that if LiIon is the future, the NiMH will rapidly become obsolete. You may not be able to replace it except with a salvaged pack. More likely you'd get a plug-compatible LiIon pack on the after market.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Feb 25 2007, 12:57 PM) [snapback]396251[/snapback]</div>

We *know* they received no subsidies from the U.S.

 

If they can make Li-ion last for more than 5 years, that would be very impressive. In non hybrid environments, we're still suffering with the 10%-35% loss of capacity drop after 3mo-1 year, whether or not you use the cell. It will be interesting to see what Toyota does to the pack to make it survive the high temperatures and current spikes inherent in hybrids. I personally don't like spending >$1000 for a laptop to find an unusable battery within 1.5 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_ion_battery

I know that the prius doesn't fully charge or discharge the pack, but a loss rate of 10-30% would shift the discharge range from the stock 40%-80% rate to something near 20%-60%. At least the cold start capacity is way better with Li-ion than it is with NiMH, we also wouldn't have to worry about the prii sitting a long time unused, as the self discharge rate is a lot lower (~20% per year) IIRC, NiMH is something like 1% per day!

In general, anything to develop battery technology is a good thing for everyone that has any sort of modern electronic gadget..

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Feb 25 2007, 03:46 PM) [snapback]396295[/snapback]</div>

Once you delve into the wonderful realm of Government sponsored madness and subsidies, otherwise known as Japan Inc., you'll end up shaking your head and muttering to yourself.

Any government that pays people to go up and down streets and cut off tree branches because shopkeepers complain about having to rake up leaves is one that has many, many problems.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Feb 25 2007, 03:01 PM) [snapback]396301[/snapback]</div>

Yes. Our system of ticketing the shopowners for not maintaining the trees themselves is so much more functional.

Tell me. Did Toyota receive half a billion dollars to develop the Prius from the Japanese Gov? A yes or no will suffice.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(_echo @ Feb 25 2007, 02:47 PM) [snapback]396296[/snapback]</div>

Milwaukee power tool Li-ion battery packs have warranty for 5 years / 2,000 charges. Toyota just need to extend the life to 10 years and hybrid pulse cycles are no where near as deep as the 100% discharge of the power tools.

Considering how Toyota can warrant NiMH packs to last 10 years / 150,000 miles, making Manganese Li-ion pack last that long should be a piece of cake. As a bonus, Toyota might throw in 9 miles EV range as hinted already.

Dennis

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Feb 25 2007, 03:20 PM) [snapback]396310[/snapback]</div>

Does anyone know how this will effect the folks doing after market plug-in? Does it matter that the basic battery system has changed?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Feb 25 2007, 04:14 PM) [snapback]396305[/snapback]</div>

I don't recall anyone being ticketed for not maintaining trees... Nor do I recall turning our beaches into concrete, which is another popular pastime of the Japanese government.

And yes, Toyota did receive money from the Japanese government... how much, I don't know. In fact, nobody really knows for sure, because Toyota isn't forthcoming about it. Hyundai estimated, at one point, that the Japanese government was paying for about half of each hybrid rolling off the lines, which given the fact that Toyota was 'losing' money on each car, probably makes sense.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Feb 25 2007, 03:56 PM) [snapback]396328[/snapback]</div>

Here you get a letter from the City. If you don't do it, they do and then they charge you for it. If you don't pay, it's added to your taxes. Then if you don't pay.....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Feb 25 2007, 05:05 PM) [snapback]396338[/snapback]</div>

Ah, I guess it is better to just cut the branches off wholesale then.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TonyPSchaefer @ Feb 25 2007, 01:45 PM) [snapback]396276[/snapback]</div>

The date of the article on the web site is probably in synch with the print version of the magazine. Magazines are always future dated for news stand sales.

 

I'm not so sure about the "demise of the NiMH battery".
The characteristics of batteries are so diverse, that we'll probably see a dual battery setup in a PHEV. The NiMH seems to work very well for the Prius setup. So why not keep it and add the Li battery as the plug in portion? The Li would be replaceable like in a laptop, or you could just let it die after 5 years and keep driving the car as a regular hybrid.

Come to think of it, The Prisu is already a dual battery vehicle. Why not make it a 3 battery vehicle?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Feb 25 2007, 04:20 PM) [snapback]396310[/snapback]</div>

It certainly looks like they can if they want to, without adding too much extra cost.

Let's imagine that they stick with the same 28 kg mass of the battery used in the current Prius, but just switch from NiMH (46 Wh/kg) to LiIon (150 Wh/kg). Also, imagine that in the new Prius they allow cycling between 20% to 85% (like you can do with the new LiIon chemistry types, eg A123, Altair etc for many thousands of cycles), as opposed to the 40% to 80% restrictions of the current setup.

This would mean the maximum amount of charge storage in the battery increases from 1.3 kWh (NiMH) to 4.2 kWh (LiIon). The useable charge would also increase from 0.5 kWh (today) to 2.7 kWh (LiIon).

That 2.7 kWh is enough for about 11 miles EV range.

So the 9 mile plug-in EV range is still easily doable at reasonable cost, it just depends on whether they have an A123 style battery or not.

 

I guess I missed something. Does this mean Prius WILL have a plug in capability when the new batteries become standard?