Toyota "WS" Lifetime ATF

"World Standard lief-time ATF"? Is it used in the CVT of a Prius?
I hate my life-time ATF (auto transmission fluid) in my BMW. You know it is now dirty but the dealer refuse to change it for you. Worse yet, BMW don't sell you by gallons. It comes in 40-gallon units. So changing it yourself is out of the question also....

 

It's a 98 BMW540iA. Yes, the auto tranny was from GM. I have tried to have my BMW dealers replace the ATF for me. They don't recommend it and didn't want to perform it. Private mechanics couldn't do it either because the ATF comes in a big barrel... After 70K miles, it seems OK but I would prefer the ATF to be changed. Some reported bad consequences (warning lights, etc) after they managed to replaced the ATF. Long story. :angry:

 

After some comments on the board about the color of the CVT fluid and the condition of the magnet on the drain plug, I changed mine out at around 14,000km. That was near the end of April.

The fluid came out VERY dark and the magnet had a lot of shavings. My local Toyota dealer sold me a 4 litre jug of WS for $42 Canadian. Oddly enough it comes in a tin can, not plastic like you'd expect.

I have a little pump rig that I used to use for filling outboard lower units. After carefully flushing it out, I used it to refill the CVT, it was a snap. The excess oil came out with I'd guess around 150ml still in the can.

I didn't notice any difference on the drive back to Winnipeg from the hobby farm, but driving around Winnipeg the car seemed a bit smoother and it would glide on electric longer.

I would hope the CVT isn't too hard on fluid. Certainly not enough to cause thickening by 14,000km.

I'm personally leery of any "lubed for life" fluid. What the manufacturer usually means is "lubed until it conks on you then YOU have to pay for a new one." Takes Planned Obsolesence to a new level.

 

But you have to remember that the CVT in the Prius is not a normal trans. It doesn't have clutches doing the shifting like the 3,4,5 speeds of a conventional transmission. Mostly just a Planetery Gearset connecting to a final drive unit. So I wouldn't think there should be as much heat build-up compared to a shifting transmission to wear out the fluid. B)

 

Motivated by similar considerations as Jayman, I asked the Toyota servicer to change ATF in 2001 Prius at about 79k miles / 126k km. Also sprung for a new sump gasket because I wnted that little magnet inspected and cleaned.

I was not present, but this is the report I received from mechanics that I do trust. (approximate quote) "Fluid was clean and fresh in appearance. Magnet had a slight amount of metal that we cleaned off in 2 seconds. Now *why* did you spend $135 on this, again?".

I just wanted to know. Now I can ignore the thing for a long time. By the way, the classic Prius used Toyota T IV fluid, which is not exactly the same thing, I have recently been told.

 

Also interesting is that the Canadian market 2004 Prius does require a CVT fluid change, but not the American market 2004 Prius. Both use the expensive WS synthetic fluid.

About the only real difference between the two countries is a lower posted speed limit (100 km/h in Manitoba, some parts of BC 110-115 km/h) and much colder winter temps, down to -40 or -42 C.

There are parts of MN, ND, SD, MT, etc that can also expect such cold winter temps. Otherwise I cannot explain why the Prius operated in one market requires a change, and the same Prius operated in another market does not.

It has been my experience with manual transmissions that - unless you're a complete dimwit in shifting gears - almost all the wear will be from the first 1,000-5,000 km. IOW a "break in" of the gears, bearings, etc.

This is also typical of rear axle differentials in pickups and RWD cars, front differentials in 4x4's, transfer cases, etc.

In early servicing of such components, I have found a high degree of shavings on the magnetic drain plug, or in the case of the rear axle on the magnet mounted to the inside of the cover. The fluid is also discolored.

When serviced again - after say 15,000-30,000km - the magnet has almost no shavings and the fluid appears clean. When I followed the shop manual for my 2000 GMC Sierra and changed the rear axle fluid after 600km of heavy towing, heavy shavings again and discolored fluid.

But it stayed very clean after that second early service. There was not one peep of an early initial service, or accelerated service after towing for the first time, in the Owner Manual. Only in the shop manual.

I would suggest for maximum benefit, if you intend to keep the vehicle a long long time, do an early initial service of the CVT. Say before 5,000 miles. Then leave it alone for the next 40,000-60,000 miles.

 

Rick:

True enough

But there are still metal gears meshing together, and that long metal transfer chain. That part reminds me of a transfer case in a 4x4, and those things should be serviced if you expect them to last.

jay

 

True Jay. My opinion was that the typical automatic trans has clutches and bands that are slipping some what as compared to the gears in the CVT. I would think the slipping would heat up the fluid and lead to shorter fluid life.

 

Rick:

Hard to believe that some automatic transmissions are considered "lubed for life."

A friend of mine about 4 hours from Winnipeg has a 2002 Buick Century. When it had only 5,000km on it I told him to get the transaxle serviced. He thought I was nuts. When it had 20,000km I urged him to get it serviced, his response was ditto.

Last year, with 75,000km and conveniently off warranty, he noticed the automatic transaxle was sluggish to upshift in winter while still cold. I kept telling him to have the transmission serviced - pronto - but he kept pointing to his owner manual.

"Normal operating conditions, no service recommended. Severe operating conditions, service every 100,000km." I guess he thought the problem would magically fix itself.

In August the thing finally started shifting poorly all the time, so when I was visiting with him we decided to drop the pan and see what was up. You should have seen it, NASTY. Heavy residue in the bottom of the pan, fluid almost black, the filter sock was clogged, etc.

It was never used for towing, and he drives gentle. Mostly highway driving, rare city or town driving.

A new filter sock, pan gasket, and fresh fluid did little to improve it. Oddly enough his local GM dealer had a transmission fluid exchange unit, the one made by Wynn. So he took it there and paid for the fluid exchange and another pan drop.

It shifts better but nowhere near like it did when new. I think it's on its last legs. The dealer is - surprise surprise! - now telling him he should think of a new or rebuilt transaxle, around $3,000 and up. This was the same dealer who tried to also reassure him the transaxle didn't need an early initial service and that I was a boob for suggesting it.

Commercial highway tractors with Roadranger transmissions can run 500,000 miles between changing the transmission fluid, but only if factory filled with a special synthetic GL-4 synthetic SAE 50 oil. They still want the first initial service at 5,000 miles, then again at 500,000 miles.

Unless driven by a dimwit, the RoadRanger should last a million miles or longer. That may be an extreme example, but it has been my personal experience with light duty cars and trucks that an early initial service of gear oil (Axle, transfer case, transmission, whatever) really pays off.

However, if you are leasing or intend to trade every 3-4 years, never even open the hood.

jay

 

I plan to change mine at 60K, which is also when I will probably be changing my tires. I really can't see it having too much wear. It is like a manual transmission left in the same gear all the time.

 

Yes Jay sometimes the book is confusing,especially when it gives you the option of "normal" and "severe" intervals. How do they come up with those guidelines? I would always think to go with severe,as it is cheaper to spend a little now as compared to a lot later. But some people just have to go by the book on their maintenances and that is their way.
And Dan,I think of it the same way. Just like a manual transmission. But the fluid should still be inspected to make sure it is not breaking down. Everyones driving habits are different also. Some are easier on things than others will be.

 

Hi Rick:

For something that most people ignore anyway - rear axle, transfer case, power steering fluid, etc - I think an early initial service really pays off for long life.

Motor oil is a different matter. Most folks will actually change it once in awhile, so we get into semantics of "normal" and "severe" service.

Speaking of motor oil, it doesn't matter how often you change it if you develop a slow problem. When I changed my oil last week at 24,321km, I took a 120 ml sample and sent it off the Caterpillar SOS oil analysis in Toronto.

They called me at the office this week to tell me the Na (Sodium) levels were elevated. The limit is generally 35 ppm and after running their test 3x, they came up with a consistent 75-80 ppm.

This most likely indicates a slow coolant leak.

So I'm going to put on another 4,000km, do a sample again, and see if the Na levels are still high. If they are, had better get my motor checked for slow coolant leaks.

At this point I see no difference in coolant level, and if caught this early there will be no damage to bearings. If the Na levels suddenly went up to say 800 ppm, it's over quickly.

jay

 

Getting the oil analyzed would tell a good indication of engine condition,but that is something that never gets done in the real world. Only if the customer would ask for a sample and have it done his/herself would it even get done.

 

Hi Rick:

I opened a new topic in Care, Maintenance about my used oil analysis. For your convenience here is the important part:

2004 Toyota Prius, 24,084km at time of sample, 8,012km on oil. Toyota
oil filter and Mobil 1 “SuperSyn†0W-30. An asterisk indicates the
out-of-limit reading.

Fe 6
Cr 0
Mb 70
Al 2
Cu 1
Pb 0
Sn 0
Si 17
*Na 75*
Zn 642
K 3
Ni 0
Ag 0

Fuel residue: 0.0
Glycol residue: 0.0
Moisture residue: 0.0

TBN: 7.5

Before leaving Winnipeg on business I mailed off a virgin oil sample of the same lot number of Mobil 1 0W-30 I used in the motor. I've instructed Toromont SOS labs in Toronto to email the results to me, as I'm curious if the higher Na levels are caused by additives used in the oil itself.

Otherwise at a level of 75 ppm, this isn't a coolant "leak" that a person would notice on the coolant tank level. Maybe 900 ppm would be so, and note the glycol test was negative.

If it wasn't for the higher Na level, given the TBN of the oil at 8,012km, it certainly is good for a lot more use.