Featured Toyota to build megawatt electric and hydrogen plant fueled by California bio-waste

Looks an answer to Tesla's SC network, both companies trying to provide sources for their customers to fill up easier.
Toyota is not an energy player, but since there is no H2 economy yet, moved forward... (?)

 

any government subsidies?

 

It will power the fuel cell trucks they're using at the port, and then some. It's a start. Hydrogen may not be the answer, but why not try this?

Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.

 

Reading this article made me think about this thread:
Elon Musk's Battery Boast Will Be Short-Lived - Bloomberg

South Korea’s Hyundai Electric & Energy Systems Co. is building a 150-megawatt lithium-ion unit, 50 percent larger than Musk’s, that the company says will go live in about three months in Ulsan near the southeast coast.​

Bob Wilson

 

Although I don't have an issue with the message (I'm intrigued), I do have an issue with the messenger (greencarreports) and how it missed answering or at least addressing one on the basic tenants of reporting (and basic learning): Asking and Answering the 5 W's and H Questions | Thoughtful Learning K-12

HOW much is this going to cost? (facepalm) How much would a comparable output facility from a solar or wind cost in comparison? I guarantee that's the first question anyone in the industry is going to ask (including vehicle costs).

 

Found some more info on the Tri-gen system they will be using.
https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2016/12/f34/fcto_fountain_valley_success_story.pdf

It is a natural gas/methane fed fuel cell that captures waste like other stationary fuel cells and power generators, but can also divert some of the hydrogen produced for its fuel cell to other uses, like fueling cars. So it co-gens electric, heat, and hydrogen, thus Tri-gen. The water Greencarreports mentioned is probably just the waste water a Mirai makes, though it must be worth collecting for other uses at the scale they are building at.

I see no mention of how Toyota will use the heat. I'm guessing for onsite buildings, and maybe hot water. That's what home fuel cell units do with their heat.

The hydrogen isn't truly co-gened, at least by how I view it. Co-generation is when you get two or more products or uses from the single resource. A co-gen gas turbine power plant makes electric from burning the fuel, and then makes use of any remaining heat in the exhaust. Such plants in Northern Europe can attain efficiencies over 90% by supplying electric and heat to a community. The hydrogen from the Tri-gen isn't something that it would normally be discarding, nor is it made from the waste heat in some manner. It is simply diverting hydrogen it could use for electric production to something use.

We don't know the costs, and this is only renewable as long as the methane fed to it is. It might make distributed hydrogen production more economical by selling electric, and maybe the heat, when not needing to make hydrogen for cars. Hydrogen storage will need to properly sized, so you can have the Tri-gen ready to supply electric at peak times to maximize this.

I wonder if the heat could go to refrigeration, like a propane fired fridge. Outside sources would still be needed to get the compressed hydrogen down to -40C for fast fueling a car, eitherway.

 

Oh course there are, and there should be. The question is only if they are too high.
These waste products generate methane, and if this is not flared or turned into power it has a major impact on ghg, much higher than any reduction that has come from fuel cells so far.

In 2012 my local utility recieved $1.2M in federal money to capture biogas at a sewage treatment plant that also recycles the waste into fertilizer (kind of gross). The plant used to consume 500 KW of power, but the sewage is "digested" and run through a generator to provide 700 KW of power. Now instead of taking 500KW from the grid, it provides 200 kw to the grid. It's a proof of concept so deserving more federal money to get it right, and hopefully roll out to other sites. I believe the generator is about 35% efficient and the toyota one will probably be 45% efficient. My guess is the california tri-gen plant handles about 4x the biogas as the austin plant.

Pilot for this plant was already done at fountain valley california with 2.2 M in federal money plus IIRC anouther $2 M in state of california money. There also is a pilot in Fukuoka Japan. As a proof of concept these things pass the "possibility" test but fail the economics test. http://beta.latimes.com/world/asia/la-fg-japan-hydrogen-cars-sewage-snap-story.html

Note other information in that article is from 2016, since then the number of fuel cell cars expected has decreased significantly, and costs to build hydrogen infrastructure has increased and has taken longer than they expected a year ago.

I have no idea if they have figured out a less expensive way to use this trigen technology. THe austin pilot has proved that sewage gas can be captured and used to produce electricity, that is reasonably prices, but more expensive than wind or natural gas. The benefit of having a better smelling sewage treatment plant and mitigating the ghg effect of all that methane is probably worth it. For hydrogen generation the jury is still out.

One factor that Toyota is pushing is fuel cell trucks would eliminate the unhealthy pollution around the ports of long beach and LA. Fortunately in the last 5 years that pollution has been reduced by 90% (at a fairly high cost). Fuel cells may be part of the solution here, but that tesla semi truck may be a much more economic solution to the problem.