Toyota to announce hydrogen fuel cell breakthrough

Interesting, but.....where are we to buy the hydrogen, and how much will it cost?

Will it be able to compete with the Tesla S on price, performance, and total emissions?

 

The gen III prius batteries are 27 kw and were introduced in 2009, and upgrade from the gen IIs 25kw batteries. Toyota says they have made improvements for the gen IV prius, I would expect them to be at a minimum 27kw.

 

Spwolf, Chevrolet Spark EVhas a 21-kWh lithium-ion battery pack, if this battery is 21 kwh, a Plug-in Hydrogen hybrid?

 

Its just a repeat of old news about the prototype. Its talking about a 21 kw (28hp) battery, which is smaller than the one in the prius. I would think that when the thing actually ships in production you would put at least a prius sized battery (27kw, 1.3kwh) in it, or maybe a more powerful lithium one.

 

Ok, it will be more powerful than the current 27 kw/1.3 kwh.

Will see how it compares to Honda FCX Clarity: Honda FCX Clarity - Vehicle Specifications - Official Web Site

 

All they have said since 2009 is that it will be around $50,000.

This is the best glimpse at the size and body style they have been talking about more recently.
Toyota FCV-R concept. Mid-sized family sedan.

I am assuming they will at least use a prius sized battery, because it takes these fuel cells awhile to warm up. I don't have any inside information. If the prius battery is too big or heavy they would use a lithium one like the one used in the alpha. Hyundai has announced they will use a lithium battery in their fcv, and honda uses one in their fuel cell vehicle. We should know more next week when they announce the thing again but giving reporters a chance to ask questions. Hopefully toyota will give more details then. I kind of hate these announcements of announcements. They just repeated stuff they have said before.

 

Not sold on Hydrogen just yet, but I'll keep an open mind. Plug-in hybrids use electricity & gas, if there is shortage of one, I am covered.

For now, more excitement on the other side;4th generation coming 2015! | Page 31 | PriusChat

 

I'm definitely not trying to sell you on it. It seems to work well in plug-in hybrid fuel cell busses, but I don't think we will likely see many open to the public hydrogen stations that sell fuel for less than gasoline outside of california in north america. It may get more traction in Japan where distances are shorter, populations less dense, and gasoline more expensive. IIRC the less expensive japanese hydrogen may come from imported coal since nuclear and natural gas don't seem likely.

 

That's a misleading statement. The fuel cell doesn't replace an ICE. It only produces electrical power, and no motive force on its own. A fuel cell vehicle is nothing more than a EV that uses a fuel cell and fuel tanks instead of a traditional battery for the electricity. Which brings us to the fact that the HSD tag is nothing more than branding. This FCV will have as much in common with the Prius drivetrain as the Rav4 EV and eQ does.

Yes the battery will capture energy from regenerative braking, but is not why it is needed on a fuel cell car. Fuel cells cannot modulate their energy output fast enough for sole use as the energy source for street driving. When you hit the 'gas', you would have to wait for the power to build up. The battery acts as buffer between the fuel cell's steady energy output, and the varying high s and lows of energy demand required by the car on public roads.

The battery also provides energy until the fuel cell warms up and is producing power. Otherwise, it would be like using an old steam powered car. You would start the fire, and then wait 20 minutes for the steam pressure to build up enough for propulsion.

Isn't the 10-15 test the easy peasy one?

You saw an h that wasn't there. kWh is a rating of how much energy the battery holds, as you know. kW is a rating of how much power it can deliver at a time. If you like thinking of the battery as the car's fuel tank, in which the kWh is the volume, the kW is a measure of how fast the fuel system can deliver the fuel to the motor.

The latest report was that it would competitive with the Tesla S on price.

 

I don't think toyota has decided yet how much money they want to lose on fuel cell vehicles in the US. That competitive with the Tesla S on price means they don't really want to sell many, because it certainly won't be competitive with the tesla S on performance. I can't really think of a good reason for toyota to lose a lot of money pushing fuel cells though. Selling some though may help them get more money from he japanese government.

 

IIRC, they get max CARB credit just for having the ability to "fast-refuel".

Thus, Model S was designed from outset with battery swap, but Tesla may or may not build swap stations.

Ditto, Toyota gets max credits since this FCV his fast-fill, but it'll be the buyers problem where to get hydrogen.

For the record, I think it is ridiculous to mandate cars do a certain thing (fast-fill), but don't have a corresponding requirement that makes that thing possible (building hydrogen highways and swap stations).
At least with the Tesla, you can charge up at home. And there are Superchargers for road trips.
Even if they build hydrogen stations in major metro areas like LA, how the heck are you supposed to take a road trip in this thing?

 

They are suposed to, but... carb looks like it is changing the rules. BEVs were not suposed to get the credits, the requirement was only meant to give incentives to fuel cell vehicles, but pretend carb was not favoring them over BEVs.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20130805/OEM11/308059945/tesla-profits-could-be-challenged-by-calif.-credit-rule-change#axzz2dnWkNcNI

Of course toyota gets the max credits. Toyota, GM, Honda helped write the rules with the hydrogen lobby for CARB. I don't think CARB wants you to take road trips out of state, so no problem with no hydrogen stations outside the major cities. If they wanted you to take road trips they would give less credit for fast hydrogen refueling, and more credit for PHEVs.

The govenator got money appropriated for the hydrogen highway, but there were no cars, so many stations have closed.
California: Has Schwarzenegger's hydrogen highway gone bust? -- Tuesday, March 10, 2009 -- www.eenews.net

 

It sounds like Toyota are planning for "10s of thousands" in the 2020s. By then Tesla should be shipping 200K per year of the gen 3, priced in the 30s, with convenient overnight refueling at home.

Some recent news about carbon neutral hydrogen and synthetic gasoline production.

Water + Sunshine = Fuel as Lab in California Chases Dream: Cars - Bloomberg

 

Enough to pay for all the development costs, and the costs of production?

I still don't see hydrogen as a viable alternative.

 

I personally don't believe in Hydrogen fueled cars as having full acceptance by 2015.
There is a big difference between what was the market for Prius back in late 90s, and this near future: fuel changes (a lot)! Hydrogen is not a commodity...
And WTW efficiency may be matched by regular BEVs easily...

Its is good to have the technology and knowledge, and many parts common with other cars, though.

I'm a watcher on this matter .

 

Yes, the price still isn't finalized. The Tesla price comparison is a step back from the initial 50k announcement, or the 50k was the price after incentives. The Hyundai ix35 is projected to sell at $52k in 2015 when private sales start. They're going to municipal fleets in Sweden now, and it sounds like Europe will be its main market.

It's not in gaseous or liquid form. The laser metal hydride idea is intriguing though. The hydrogen is bound to magnesium CDs, and released by a laser. Refueling can be done onboard with a microwaving hydrogen pumped in under lower pressures than other FCVs need. Or you swap out the spent discs for fresh ones, and recharge the them at a central location.

So it doesn't need the extensive infrastructure the high pressure and liquid fuel systems would require. Along major thorough fares would probably be the only areas that would need hydrogen stations. Disc swapping could be used just about everywhere else. The disc swapping would also allow FCVs to be viable outside a hydrogen network as it grows

It sounds to still be early development, and still might be a pipe dream or swindle. If it works out, it could give an alternative to the ICE for our future EV range extenders. I also think the idea of exchanging fuel discs at a vending machine at the local store is cool.

CARE H2 Energy Systems Laser Hydrides

 

If it doesn't make sense with the government subsidies, it certainly doesn't make sense without them.

Japan is typically tight lipped about how big subsidies are. It took about 10 years after the prius was introduced for people to come forward with how much the government contributed. The father of the prius really wants these cars no matter what they cost, but the board isn't so sure.

While I am very negative about large sales of fcv in the US, a couple of the problems here are much easier in Japan. First the price of hydrogen versus gasoline is much better in Japan because of much higher gas taxes. Second the fueling infrastructure is much easier because of population density and use of trains/planes instead of cars for longer trips. Further japan is more dependent on imported oil. Japan uses oil for 42% of its energy, and imports virtually all of it, the US uses oil for 35% of its energy and imports 40% of it. If I got the numbers right (eia) Japan's energy is 40% imported oil, the US is 14%. For Japan diversifying to hydrogen from coal or grid electricity makes much more sense, as nuclear fuel and coal are more stable price wise, and renewable electricity is dropping in relative prices.

To me for japan fuel cells would be best in a car like the next gen plug in prius, designed ofcourse for the fuel tanks. This could have a much smaller perhaps 40kw fuel cell, and in japanese driving put 50% of fuel in from electricity from the plug. In the US lack of power (0-60 time) would kill the car because of price, but in Japan the government could make the numbers work if they want to do it.

Ford and GM both have talked about fuel cells working better as plug-ins. They have set themselves up to learn from the Japanese subsidies, Ford partnering with Nissan and Mercedes, and gm partnering with Honda. 10,000 psi hydrogen at the station seems particularly problematic both for fueling infrastructure and fuel tanks in the cars. Using metal hydrides or methanol may be the winning carrier if hydrogen is to take off. Methanol could use most of the existing infrastructure, and the fuel systems developed for brazil.

 

Agreed. The only issue is whether we will be using batteries (with swap or supercharging) instead of hydrogen for our high-load/long-distance driving. Batteries have already won the low-load/short-distance contest.

Every one of these FCVs will have an electric motor and small battery, enough to capture all potential regen.
The transition of all cars, regardless of fuel source, to hybrid/ev drivetrain is inevitable.
It simply does not make sense to waste braking energy.....it has become the 'low-hanging fruit' of the efficiency ladder.
Interesting that Toyota and others refer to the tank of the FCV as the "hydrogen battery". It means they've also accepted hybridization as a foregone conclusion.