The Germans are coming

And BMW is now getting into the environmentally friendly vaporware car game along with this car and the Chevy Volt . . .

just saw a commercial on TV tonight touting the BMW Hydrogen 7 . . .

. . . "when the world is ready."

UM, HELLOOOOOOOO . . . NOW!!!!! <_<

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drive...rticleId=117647

 

What, no CVT on the Audi?

The big problem is They're just realizing the market is ready for it, but in order for a car to be ready for market it needs quite a number of years of R&D to make it to production.

The Prius didn't pop up out of nowhere, after all. Toyota had some foresight and put some money into it, and they have a production vehicle now that's only getting better. They way to catch up is to license the technology from Toyota

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ichabod @ Oct 25 2007, 06:43 AM) [snapback]530148[/snapback]</div>

Or to abandon the short term and try to leapfrog to the next generation.

Tom

 

Oooh, yet another V8 hybrid, making 13% better MPG than it's petrol-only version. Gee, color me non-impressed. Stupid, really.

Same story over at toyota, yes, I know. what's the deal here? Why can't we get car companies to realize dwindling oil supply = high gas prices = MORE than 13% MPG improvement? Is there really a market for 13% better, just because it's a hybrid? I didn't even catch if emissions were lowered (well 13% due to the MPG). And plug-in IS the next step. Got to have a plug to use electrons more.

C'mon, all you car companies...make a slightly larger than Prius mini-van that gets 40 + MPG, is more practical than an SUV, safer...and you make tons of money. Seems like a good business case. Anyone?

 

I agree with Finman. We need a Prius minivan. The Estima minivan should be in the US already. My wife's Chevy Venture can't last forever it's got 198k on it. For it's size it gets 26mpg on the highway so I'm looking for a 40mpg plus minivan too.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sufferin' Prius Envy @ Oct 25 2007, 03:11 AM) [snapback]530144[/snapback]</div>

Well in the defense of BMW, the world doesn't have any sort of infrastructure to use energy to refill a battery in a new and high tech way (aka hydrogen)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Ichabod @ Oct 25 2007, 03:43 AM) [snapback]530148[/snapback]</div>

Unless you are Ford and then you just put the technology on the shelf and continue to wait for gas prices to drop below $3/gallon....

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clett @ Oct 25 2007, 10:26 AM) [snapback]530233[/snapback]</div>

Audi is also well known for creating wonderful car interiors. You certainly do pay a premium, but when it comes to form and function, I don't think *anyone* tops Audi.

 

According to my wife's uncle in Germany who works for Porsche on their hybrid project, they basically took a Prius apart and tried to leapfrog their R&D that way. Still, he said it'd still be another two years before they could have something to show.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(zenMachine @ Oct 25 2007, 03:18 PM) [snapback]530391[/snapback]</div>

I can't help but laugh because all these companies are going to use Toyota's ideas and claim that they are their own. Pretty sad when Porsche devolves to the same tactics as GM to figure out how to build a better car.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sufferin' Prius Envy @ Oct 25 2007, 05:11 AM) [snapback]530144[/snapback]</div>

From what I've read this sounds like kind of a crock. Hydrogen ICEs are signifigantly less efficient than fuel cells, which are currently struggling to be as efficient as gas/electric hybrids. Calling a 17mpg land yacht green because it has the option to burn Hydrogen (currently made almost entirely from Natural Gas or Coal) is a pretty big stretch. Right up there with the Chevy Hybrid Pickup I'd say.

According to the article below,
http://www.spiegel.de/international/spiege...,448648,00.html
this vehicle uses 170L (8kg) of Hydrogen to attain its 200km (124 mile) range. According to this wiki,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy
it takes ~50kWh to electrolyze 1kg of H2 from water. Using the US average 1.34 lbs CO2 / kWh from this report,
http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/electricity/p.../co2report.html
400kWh to generate 8kg of hydrogen equates to ~536 lbs of CO2. According to this EPA page,
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/co2.shtml
burning a gallon of gasoline produces 20 lbs of CO2.

So based on electrolysis numbers this vehicle in H2 mode generates the same CO2 as if it had burned 26.8 gallons of gasoline to travel 124 miles. Thats equivalent to 4.6mpg! Incidentally, the same 400kWh of electricity would drive the 1998 RAV4 EV ~926 miles based on 432 AC Wh/mi from this DOE report:
http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/toyrav98.pdf

A more common (but less renewable) method for H2 production is steam reformation of methane/natural gas. According to this page,
http://www.dalefield.com/slspartners/hydrogen_fm.html
Each pound of H2 produced generates 9.42 lb2 CO2. In this case, for the 8kg of H2 this car uses to travel 124 miles it generates 165.8 lbs of CO2, the same as 8.3 gallons of gasoline. At least now we're equivilent to 14.9 mpg relative to CO2 generation.

Lastly, the other common source of Hydrogen is from Coal. Again using the same page,
http://www.dalefield.com/slspartners/hydrogen_fm.html
Each pound of H2 produced generates ~24 lbs of CO2. For this case for the 8kg of H2 this car uses to travel 124 miles it generates 422.4 lbs of CO2, the same as 21.1 gallons of gasoline. This puts us back at 5.9 mpg equivilent as far as CO2 generation goes.

Another interesting tidbit here:
http://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/docs/cs_cen...asification.doc
From this document, they calculate total energy usage for various vehicles:

------------BTU/mi
gas ICE-----5900
HEV---------4200
2005 FCV---5100
2030 FCV---3200

Of course they neglect to included BEVs. Based on a conversion of 1KWh to 3413 BTUs, and using total AC Wh/mi (ie charging efficiency included)

------------BTU/mi
RAV4 EV----1475
EV1----------1273

Based on 17mpg, the BMW is in the 7300 BTU/mi range, or 7500 BTU/mi based on 8kg H2/124mi.

I can see why everyone is so excited about Hydrogen :blink:

Rob

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RinMI @ Oct 25 2007, 12:31 PM) [snapback]530396[/snapback]</div>

Auto companies, Toyota included, have been doing this for many many years. I don't find it sad in the slightest.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RinMI @ Oct 25 2007, 12:31 PM) [snapback]530396[/snapback]</div>

I must have missed something. GM participated in a three-way partnership with Chrysler and BMW to jointly develop the hybrid drivetrain for the 2008 Yukon/Tahoe hybrid. Chrysler and BMW will be featuring the same drivetrain in their respective hybrid offerings. If Porsche is able to access (and presumably improve) technology that Audi developed, how is that an unethical business model?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(zenMachine @ Oct 25 2007, 03:18 PM) [snapback]530391[/snapback]</div>

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RinMI @ Oct 25 2007, 03:31 PM) [snapback]530396[/snapback]</div>

All companies reverse-engineer their competition to leapfrog their R & D, for almost every single project. Building a boring, $12K compact? Then you'll be disassembling examples of every one of your competitors.

 

My apologies to all. I did not realize that this was common practice in the auto industry. In some industries, employees can get fired for using other companies products because of what I believe is referred to as "thought corruption" which is where an employee would design something that inadvertently is too close to the original manufacturer's design and the company gets sued.

Just for my future reference, whose cars did Toyota disassemble to make the Prius? I would like to know which car is truly the "father" or "mother" of all these hybrids.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(RinMI @ Oct 25 2007, 02:31 PM) [snapback]530396[/snapback]</div>

He also said that the biggest challenge for Porsche is to maintain the power and performance while increasing fuel efficiency. If I remember correctly, their target is something like 9L/100km.