sludge?

Not sure about Toyota, but when I worked for a Honda dealer, the only cars we saw with engine sludge (or huge chunks of carbon in worst-case scenarios) were because of people not changing the oil enough. If you change the oil (and don't use cheadp oil) at frequent intervals it won't sludge up.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Boxster...WRX...Prius? @ Feb 5 2007, 07:44 PM) [snapback]385762[/snapback]</div>

The sludge thing is pretty old news, appying to 1997-2002 models. Toyota launched an expanded service program to deal with it, some dealers were scummy and didn't notify customers, and Toyota recently settled those complaints. Details at http://www.oilgelsettlement.com/

Not an issue with the Prius that I'm aware of.

 

Well I think a lot of the "sludge" depends on climate and the quality of motor oil. I routinely have my used oil analysed, and had a difficult time tracking down some odd results. To make a long story short, it turned out my Toyota dealer was using absolute crap oil.

I think Toyota really got burned over the sludge issue. You'd think they would specify a better motor oil, perhaps a synthetic with good detergent levels. Nope, they responded by lowering the oil change interval from 7,500 miles to 5,000 miles.

The same motor in Europe has a 10,000 mile oil change interval.

Sludged up motors of all makes are fairly easy to find up here. City driving in extremely cold temps, such as -39 F this morning, is the perfect way to make sludge in a motor. A cheap oil just can't cope and by saving a few bucks you've fubar'd a motor

http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=14829

http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=27824&st=0

http://priuschat.com/Tell-me-why-I-can-t-c...10k-t26048.html

In my personal opinion, the dealer will be the biggest source of fud/disinformation. I find that ironic.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Feb 5 2007, 05:13 PM) [snapback]385796[/snapback]</div>

Since you're an advocate for oil testing, please tell me (everyone), how large of an oil sample you need, and about how much it should cost for the testing.

For example, could one just draw a little oil out of the dip stick tube for checking fresh oil? For used oil, would it have to come out of the drain plug, or would through the dip stick tube work also?

I doubt that I have a sludge problem (although if it's all down in the oil pan, I wouldn't know). No evidence of black oil, or sludge on the dipstick after 5000 miles though. Hopefully the dealer (or whoever changes the oil) would tell you if it looks worse than it normally should.

Thanks.

Dave M.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusunum @ Feb 5 2007, 03:05 PM) [snapback]385750[/snapback]</div>

The oil sludge settlement link posted by MegansPrius gives the details. I'm not sure why you'd mention a "2.7 liter V6 engine". I don't think Toyota has had a V6 of that displacement in the last 10 years or more. The engines affected were 3.0 liter V6s and I believe 2.2 liter 4s.

V6 Camrys (97-02 included in the settlement) had 3.0L V6s. The 96 (generation prior) also had a 3.0L whereas the generation before that (ended w/91 model year) had a 2.5L V6.

 

that's not an issue on current toyotas. some were inherently prone to sludging, but they changed their engine design a long time ago to get rid of that.

not changing you oil can still get you into trouble with the current engines, DH had a recent model highlander engine just out of powertrain warranty sitting around for months while the owner tried to fake documentation of oil changes... while the extended warranty company said "no f'ing way this oil was changed regularly"

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(priusunum @ Feb 5 2007, 06:05 PM) [snapback]385750[/snapback]</div>

I haven't heard any Toyota sludging issues for some time now. If I remember correctly Toyota stonewalled the issue for quite awhile but finally started reimbursing those affected customers if very accurate records of oil change intervals were provided to them.

I've also heard that it was caused by the same reason you describe, but I don't know that for sure.

IMHO I would think that, if there were sludging problem with the Prius, we would have heard about it on PriusChat by now. Personally I don't think you have anything to worry about.

As others have already posted. Use a good quality oil and change it per Toyota's recommendation if not sooner. Be sure to keep all documentation regarding oil and filter changes.

Hope you enjoy your Prius. It's a he**uva of a car.

 

Use Mobil 1 and you can rest easy: no sludge.

Yes, you still need to change it.

They used to have an advertising gimick, the "oil pan test." I had to have an oilpan replaced in a car I owned. At 140K miles, having used Mobil 1 the last 60K miles, the old oilpan was spotless.

Harry

 

Doesn't effect the Prius at all.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dmckinstry @ Feb 5 2007, 09:29 PM) [snapback]385809[/snapback]</div>

The sample size is approx 120 ml, which isn't very much. It costs me $17 plus taxes and I have it done through the local Caterpillar heavy equipment dealer, Toromont Cat, which is located near the airport. Their oil analysis program is called "SOS"

http://www.toromontcat.com/sos_welcome.asp

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dmckinstry @ Feb 5 2007, 09:29 PM) [snapback]385809[/snapback]</div>

The dipstick method is the one I use to sample my oil. Toromont sold me a sample pump, which the 120 ml sample bottle screws into. It has a knurled adapter at the other end to accept different size plastic tubing. I picked a tube that would fit a standard dipstick.

I give the sample pump 3-4 pumps and a vacuum is created. I then watch the little sample bottle until the level reaches the embossed circle, which is the Full line. I then open the air valve, and the vacuum is released. I'll post a photo of the sample pump.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dmckinstry @ Feb 5 2007, 09:29 PM) [snapback]385809[/snapback]</div>

Respectfully, that is flawed conclusion. Only a detailed motor oil analysis - in particular particle counts/residuals - can even begin to answer a question like that. Typically if a motor oil is incapable of handling combustion byproducts - or breaks down under extreme conditions - the vast majority of deposits are formed in the engine itself.

A particularly nasty place to get deposits is on the crown land area under a piston, and especially in the ring land area - lower oil scraper ring - of a piston. If a bare minimum spec API rated oil - like the garbage my dealer uses, and even then it's *contaminated* - is used with mild deposits already formed, the detergent package is completely incapable of dealing with the deposits already there. Rather, the additives - polymeric thickeners for some reason - are attracted to the deposits.

At the opposite extreme, a diesel motor oil rated CI-4 has an extremely high level of detergents to deal with the extra soot in the oil. Most diesel motors that require a CI-4 oil have EGR, which dumps massive amounts of soot into the oil.

In the case of the handful of Toyota motors that sludged up, the mess was in the cylinder head area. That would only be apparent upon removing the valve cover, or using an inspection scope to take a peek through the oil fill.

I've said it before: I was VERY surprised at what absolute garbage my dealer oil was. No wonder Toyota now recommends a 5,000 mile oil change interval. Personally - and I base this on the lab results of that crap - I wouldn't trust it past 3,000 miles. Even then, if operated in extreme conditions like our -40 winters, it would probably start sludging almost immediately.

Remember this little "gotcha" about the wonderful API minimum spec oils: there is no minimum requirement to avoid cold stuck rings ie: sludging in the ring land area.

 

Ive been reading, and absorbing some, but not absolutely all, of what jayman posts on the general subject of oil. I hope this won't be annoying, but I'd like jayman to tell me if switching to synthetic oil for a Honda Accord LX, 1998, 4-cylinder, V-Tech, with 145k miles on it would be good or not. This car may have been run without an oil change for as long as 6 to 10 months, worst case. It had horribly gunky oil and was nearly out, when the car was home long enough for me to check it! I have since done several changes at 1500 miles apart, plus some treatments involving use of some kind of curative gunk that is poured in and then the engine is run for a few minutes. Now, I am thinking that synthetic oil might be good. I realize this is off topic, but the discussion of using Synthetic oil in the Prius -- which I am doing -- made me wonder if this would be a good thing to reduce the damage to my Accord LX. Granted, there's no going back for that poor Accord, but I assure you I will be managing all oil changes from here on out, and both cars will be changed on time. What weight Synthetic oil would I put into this poor accord, assuming you think this is a good idea?

 

Jayman;

Thank you for the insightful information. Good stuff.

I got my Prius at Woodhaven Toyota and I am a little concerned about the oil they will use. Frankly, I believe Toyota should be using a 0W20 or better as others do, but I still have no assurance that they will use the synthetic I give them at the time of the car's first oil change. Is there a dealership in the city you would recommend? I just don't feel I can trust those folks.

I may also perform an oil test on the car just to see the composition of the engine's first oil. If I am correct, the first oil (factory) should be very revealing of an engine conditioning formulation. I just hope my dealership gives me the oil sample from my car an not from another... :blink:


Cheers;

MSantos

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jendbbay @ Feb 7 2007, 09:08 PM) [snapback]386728[/snapback]</div>

If I recall, most Honda Accords +1998 require a 5W-20. Assuming it has had some sort of minimum service, I'd like to think the proper 5W-20 was used. Motorcraft 5W-20 should meet the requirements.

I respectfully suggest you do not consider using a synthetic oil in a motor as abused as that one. At the very least, it's overdue for a timing belt, a valve adjustment, etc. With the high probability of sludge and other deposits, you're wasting your money with a synthetic.

On the other hand, if you're in an area with bitter cold temps - especially below 0 F - then a 0W-20 would be a good idea. Otherwise, stick with the recommended 5W-20 and hope the timing belt holds out, along with the valves.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MSantos @ Feb 7 2007, 09:14 PM) [snapback]386732[/snapback]</div>

Welcome to my world. Offhand, there isn't a dealer in the city I could recommend. All of them will launch into the same spiel about "our no-name bulk 5W-30 sitting in the contaminated tote bin is best but a 0W-xx will make you burn oil and your motor will explode somewhere on Higgins at 2am and the prosties will do horrible unmentionable things to you ..."

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MSantos @ Feb 7 2007, 09:14 PM) [snapback]386732[/snapback]</div>

Oh hell, I'll happily use my oil sample pump and do it for you. Takes all of a minute, tops. Buy me a beer and we'll call it even

 

So it sounds like - based on trust or should I say well deserved mistrust - you really can't be sure if the motor has been properly serviced or not. I assume this was at a Honda dealer?

So for now I'd stick with something like Motorcraft 5W-20 for a couple of oil changes, then try a 0W-20 after.

Run a 20W-50? That is complete horse s*** don't do it. Does the motor burn oil? No? Then try a good 5W-20 for a couple of oil changes and see what happens. If the oil turns dark and skanky quickly, there may be a lot of deposits in the motor.

Try to avoid all those wonderful motor Fix It In A Can, they usually do more harm than good. No magic elixir exists that can "cure" a motor with heavy deposits, stuck rings, worn cylinders, etc.

If a motor is really abused and already clogged up with sludge and deposits, the seals may be shot. So if you put in a synthetic with much higher detergent levels, that could knock loose some of the softer deposits and cause leaks. It's rare for that to happen though.

 

From personal experience, another point about switching to synthetic (or other high-detergency) engine oils on a high-time engine of uncertain maintenance history:

You may very well mobilize sludge or varnish, which then may clog the screen on the oil pump intake in the engine sump. Removing the oil pan and cleaning the screen will be effective, and may need to be done more than once.

If the oil pressure warning light comes on (please confirm its function first!), stop the engine immediately. This probably means that the intake screen is already clogged, and needs cleaning *now*. Total engine failure may be seconds away. It was about 30 seconds in the case of an early-90s Honda Civic. That is the personal experience part.

In other words engines can be rehabilitated in this way, but only with a clear realization that 'de-sludging' an engine immediately makes the uptake screen the weak link in the system.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Feb 7 2007, 04:15 PM) [snapback]386692[/snapback]</div>

Thanks for all the info and the link.

I've had my oil changed at a Toyota dealer over the past 8 oil changes (I'm at about 41k miles now), except for one change at a Jiffy lube (I think they use Quaker State IIRC) and another at a Pennzoil Quick Lube or whatever. I think I'll get the pump, check the oil from the most recent oil change (which won't have more than 500-1000 more miles on it by the time I can do it), check it just before the next dealer oil change, check it just after the dealer oil change, and check it just before the change after that. If the results don't satisfy me, then I'll show the results to the dealer and insist that he put in the Mobile 5W-30 that I provide. I will test it after it's installed, but that will tell me whether I go back to that dealer again.

Hopefully my dealer will be using better oil than yours did. It would be less of a hassle.

But it will probably worth the ~$100 for my own peace of mind.

Thanks.

Dave M.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tochatihu @ Feb 9 2007, 12:16 PM) [snapback]387471[/snapback]</div>

Yep, especially your comment about dropping the oil pan first. If it's easy to get to, no real issue except you getting a bit dirty and maybe an hour of your time. Some motors literally have to be jacked up or even yanked out to get the oil pan off.