Shamelessly Stolen

I can't believe it Im speachless :mellow: where do we come up with this stuff

 

The idea that if we didn't import any oil from the Middle East then we wouldn't care about the stability of the Middle East is seriously flawed.

For one thing, we don't get most of our oil from the Middle East. Only about 20% comes from there. The rest comes from North and South America and Africa. Why? Because those places are a lot closer to the US than the Middle East. Most of the Middle East oil goes to Europe and Asia.

The real reason we care about stability in the Middle East is because oil is a fungible, world wide commodity that is in limited supply. It can be, and is shipped around the world. There isn't a significant difference between Middle East Oil and South American oil; you can make gasoline out of either.

So lets say we didn't import any oil from the Middle East. Therefore, Middle East oil would be shipped elsewhere, to Europe and Asia for instance. Now what do you think would happen if a major war interrupted the oil supply from the Middle East? Do you think Europe and Asia would simply stop consuming oil? No, what would happen is that they would find another supplier, such as South America. Therefore, they would be competing for oil with us and the price of oil would skyrocket.

The bottom line is that the stability of all oil producing countries is of concern to us, to Europe, and to every other country that imports oil.

Here's a nice real world example for you. Why did the price of gasoline in the United Kingdom increase after Katrina flooding closed the oil refineries on the Gulf Coast? The UK doesn't import any gasoline from Gulf Coast refineries, so why did their prices go up? The anwser is because the US temporarily dropped the gasoline formulation regulations to allow gasoline to be purchased from other countries, such as those in Europe. Gasoline that would have been shipped to the UK started coming here instead because we bid higher for it. This caused a shortage in the UK, thereby raising their prices.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Apr 7 2006, 08:32 AM) [snapback]236351[/snapback]</div>

Here's a report on US gasoline imports prepared for Congress a couple of years back. Kudos once again to the Library of Congress.

-- rick

 

"Now what do you think would happen if a major war interrupted the oil supply from the Middle East"

Then why start a major war in the middle east? Talk about stirring up a hornet's nest.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jared2 @ Apr 7 2006, 01:09 PM) [snapback]236374[/snapback]</div>

Every oil consuming country is concerned about and should be concerned about the stability of oil producing countries, regardless as to who imports oil from said oil producing countries. This is because the disruption of anyone's oil supply affects everyone across the globe.

Whether you believe it or not, the goal of the Iraq War is a government of Iraq that is peaceful and not a threat to it's neighbors. Something that Saddam's government certainly was not.

The war is definitely about oil. But not in the way that wacko leftist conspiracy theory nuts portray it. The goal of the Iraq War is not to take control of Iraq's oil. It's not Bush's attempt to line the pockets of his oil company buddies. The goal of the Iraq War is to produce a stable environment where the oil producing countries of the Middle East do not have to worry about whether some belligerent such as Saddam is going to riding into their country on a tank, much like Saddam did in 1990.

Creating a stable environment around oil producing countries benefits us immensely, because it keeps the oil flowing and our prices low, even if we never see a drop of it. Any major disruption in supply, such as Saddam taking over Kuwait in 1990, harms us greatly, even if it’s not our supply that is interrupted.

We should have finished the job and gotten rid of Saddam after the first Gulf War. We hoped that the embargo would of taken care of him. It didn't. Saddam had to go.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Apr 7 2006, 02:10 PM) [snapback]236450[/snapback]</div>

Please clairify...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Cameron @ Apr 7 2006, 03:25 PM) [snapback]236461[/snapback]</div>

Primary wacko leftist conspiracy theory: Cheney and his oil buddies sat around a poker table one day and decided to invade Iraq so that the oil companies that Cheney's buddies own can get the oil for free. Cheney then pulls the puppet strings on Bush to declare war on Iraq. Cheney's oil buddies get free oil.

Reality: Saddam was a belligerent in the region. The only thing keeping him in check was the butt kicking he got and the subsequent embargo after he invaded Kuwait in 1990. The embargo didn't get rid of him. He was still a belligerent. He was a threat to the stability of the Middle East and the oil exports from the Middle East. Even if we didn't get any oil from the Middle East, a disruption there is a major threat to our economy and therefore our security. Most other oil producing countries in the Middle East are peaceful and not a threat to their neighbors, with Iran being the only potential exception. Saddam and Iraq however, were a threat to the stability of the region and Iraq's neighbors. Therefore Saddam had to go and be replaced by a peaceful, preferably democratic, government.

All other arguments are just smokescreens, whether they be the "weapons of mass destruction" argument or the "control Iraq's oil" arguments.

 

Marlin,

Look up the latest book by Kevin Phillips (a conservative Republican). It's no leftist conspiracy, it's part of the reality.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Apr 7 2006, 12:45 PM) [snapback]236467[/snapback]</div>

I understand what you’re saying in regards to the global oil market and all that but I don’t agree that we have done anything to stabilize the gulf region. We said we wanted to bring democracy to Iraq. The people of Iraq democratically elect a Prime Minister whom our government does not like so we put the pressure on to destabilize the candidate at the same time we complain about Iraq not establishing a government as soon as possible. I personally have a hard time saying that that is the best way to stabilize the Middle East.

We are basically telling the people of Iraq to democratically elect your government so long as we agree that they are the rite people. How can we expect the people of Iraq to feel they have a government the represents them if it looks like we are trying to dictate who they should elect? How does this type of environment create stability?

 

Can someone please post a legit, reputable article exposing how much oil has been stolen from Iraq.. Perhaps there is a breakdown of pre and post war. I'd bet the answer to both figures is 0 barrels, but I'll wait for that post.

Spending a trillion dollars on a war to steal 0 barrels of oil would be like bank robbers setting $800,000,000.00 on the front steps to the bank so they could break in and steal an ink pen off the desk of the bank president while he's out on the front steps trying to nail down the problem with the big bags of cash laying there.

So... Challenge to the big talkers here... Let's see some reputable evidence of stolen oil, and until you have it, please shut your liberal cake hole.

Perhaps a second challenge for those who already know that we haven't stolen any oil yet, but who only figure that we are just getting ready to haul off with the loot. How many barrels do we have to run off with before we make a profit on the war? Do you think Dubya has a get-a-way ship to handle that load?

please don't be an idiot with your thinking people. America is not over there stealing oil anymore than we were in France to take the land for ourselves in WWII..

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daronspicher @ Apr 7 2006, 02:49 PM) [snapback]236522[/snapback]</div>

Did I miss something? Who posted on here that we stole a bunch of barrels of oil?

One of the great things left in this country is freedom to open cake hole leftist liberal or otherwise.

 

"wacko leftist conspiracy theory nuts "

Thank You! I feel better about being labeled. I was wondering how to describe myself and be proud of it. Now someone has.

"please shut your liberal cake hole."

Is that now illegal, too? Whoops, I should watch it. Sorry that this administration is doing such a wonderful job. Please tell me more about which I know nothing.

You're the type of person I wave at when given the finger.

This is me waving.

 

Unfortunately, I am among a minority of Liberals here who feel that we should have never gone into Iraq in the first place (2002, I agreed with going in, in the 90's when they invaded Kuwait and thought we should have finished the job then) BUT...

Now that we have done the deed, we need to stay and make things right. You broke it, you fix it (a la Collin Powell doctrine)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Marlin @ Apr 7 2006, 02:45 PM) [snapback]236467[/snapback]</div>

So, when a Liberal says it's about oil, you belittle them. But when you, a presumed stanch conservative, says this, it's reality?

First, there are a lot of dictators in the word that threaten us, but we're big enough to handle it without picking and choosing who to support and who to overthrow. Remember, Iran had a democratically elected President (Prime Minister?) before the CIA got together with BP and assasinated him. No wako theory here, all very true. I know your intentions are in the right place, but the means do not justify the end and we must look out for serions, long term blowback.

As a liberal Christian, I believe God prefers we focus on feeding the poor and healing the sick. Not dropping bombs and condeming new-borns.

Now, where were we? Oh, right, Oil and War.

 

Ignoring middle east stuff for a moment thought the calculations about the Prius's should be written up and submitted! I think its wonderful, it may or may not have anythign to do with the war but we are talking about a limited resource.

 

Follow the money, not necessarily the oil. There are many articles and books out there that describe the biggest threat to America's financial security was Saddam's insistence on converting Iraq's oil to petroeuros from petrodollars. If the other major oil producers followed suit the U.S. was facing the probability (certainty, according to some) of a complete financial collapse on a scale that would dwarf the Great Depression. As soon as we took over we reconverted Iraqi oil back to the dollar standard. A curious sidenote is that Iran is now making similar moves to move to a petroeuro standard - and we are sabre rattling once again.

We are a seriously upside-down country regarding energy, more so than any other in the world. We on this board are at least making small moves to help by driving the most energy efficient cars, but that is far from enough to make a real difference alone. If you all want a real scare, type in the words "peak oil" in Google and start reading.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(momfortheenvironment @ Apr 7 2006, 07:42 PM) [snapback]236614[/snapback]</div>

Unfortunately the real limited resource, for the moment, is a mass supply of Priuses.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Begreen @ Apr 8 2006, 03:08 PM) [snapback]236848[/snapback]</div>

TRUE but if we keep buying them maybe they'll pick up the product and maybe other automakers will follow suit! I'm still haggling over the value of my trade in.