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Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by bwilson4web, Sep 5, 2023.

  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Source: Self-driving car blocking road ‘delayed patient care’, San Francisco officials say | California | The Guardian

    San Francisco authorities and the company Cruise have offered conflicting accounts of an incident in which the fire department said two of the company’s robotaxis delayed an ambulance transporting a patient with critical injuries who later died at a hospital.

    The company denied the city’s claims and shared video with the Guardian that shows one of the vehicles quickly leaving the area. Reports of the incident have garnered outrage in San Francisco, which has been battling over the use of robotaxis vehicles in the city.
    . . .
    In an incident on 14 August, first-responders were treating a pedestrian who had been struck by a vehicle and had life-threatening injuries with significant bleeding. Two autonomous Cruise vehicles had stopped in nearby lanes and were not moving, “blocking ingress and egress”, according to a San Francisco fire department report obtained by Forbes.

    As the emergency crews loaded the patient into an ambulance, the vehicles remained stopped in the two lanes and police attempts to takeover the vehicles manually were unsuccessful, the report states. The fire department had to locate a police officer on scene and ask him to move to his vehicle in order to leave the scene, which the report states “further delayed patient care”.

    There are multiple videos with conflicting analysis. But this begs the question if the NHTSA, already investigating Tesla Autopilot for emergency vehicle crashes, will now investigate this incident. Given a LIDAR advocate, Mary "Missy" Cummings, works for NHTSA, one wonders.

    Recently NHTSA sent Tesla a snarky letter asking about "Elon Mode" that an independent hacker claims he found and enabled. A mode that is not available to existing Full Self Driving (FSD) owners.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #1 bwilson4web, Sep 5, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2023
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  2. douglasjre

    douglasjre Senior Member

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    Please provide year make and model of fsd vehicle as well as name of this vehicle
     
  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I have no idea about "this vehicle" because there were three General Motors "Cruise" vehicles involved. If the NHTSA does an investigation, we'll get the details.

    As for "fsd" (i.e., Full Self Driving,) these cars use some sort of General Motors in-house LIDAR based system:

    There are more technical stuff in the full YouTube.

    An associated new report:
    upload_2023-9-6_4-29-27.png
    Source: Driverless cars stall in San Francisco, causing a brief traffic jam | CNN Business

    San Francisco residents were caught off guard this weekend after Cruise self-driving cars caused a traffic jam, according to social media posts. The obstruction came a few days after California regulators approved robotaxi companies to operate their driverless cars 24/7 throughout the city.

    Videos posted on X, formerly known as Twitter, show at least 10 Cruise vehicles not moving with their hazard lights blinking in the city’s North Beach neighborhood, near where the Outside Lands music festival was happening. One account, FriscoLive415, said the incident was a “complete meltdown.”

    Thanks for asking,
    Bob Wilson
     
    #3 bwilson4web, Sep 6, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2023
  4. douglasjre

    douglasjre Senior Member

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    I wanted electric car that I can use to pull trailers and drive on my private race course. I will be regularly doing triple digit speeds with it on a closed race course not public roadways. I don't want this to interrupt my ability to use full self-driving when I put it on public roads later on. What car do you guys recommend I get
     
  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Based on your requirements, a 2023 Tesla Model S Plaid:
    • 925 HP
    • 5,500 lbs
    Good news! Tesla recently reduced the price of their Model S. I don't know if this one was included.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  6. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Why leave out the other side from the quote?
    "Cruise disputes the fire department’s claims and offers a different account of what happened. The vehicles encountered the emergency scene, the company said in a statement, and one left the area when a stoplight turned green while the other stopped “to yield to first responders” who were directing traffic. During the entire period the vehicle was stopped, traffic was “unblocked and flowing” to the right of the robotaxi.

    “The ambulance behind the AV had a clear path to pass the AV as other vehicles, including another ambulance, proceeded to do. As soon as the victim was loaded into the ambulance, the ambulance left the scene immediately and was never impeded from doing so by the AV,” spokesperson Tiffany Testo said in a statement.

    Video of the incident provided by Cruise and viewed by the Guardian shows three Cruise vehicles, along with other cars, near the scene as first responders are arriving. Two autonomous vehicles leave the area – one continues up the street, away from first responders, where it briefly pauses before continuing on.

    A stalled Cruise vehicle remained on scene with cars – including an ambulance –passing in the lane to the right of the vehicle. The ambulance assisting the victim did not pass to the right of the vehicle and instead drove on its left side."

    As for LIDAR, its use or not likely had no bearing in this case.
     
  7. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    What happens to a Tesla when the "cell phone network" is overloaded because it drives near a game or concert where everyone inside is using bandwidth to stream the event live (instead of enjoying the in person experience)? A Ford? Bolt? etc.
     
  8. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Pretty sure it depends on whether the navigation system s using the network for maps vs. having a map saved onboard.
     
  9. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    is the question inferring Musk's satellite system isn't used? IDK. In any event, WE pay a premium so that we are the last in line to get slowed down, band width wise. IOW, they have different processes to insure reliability ... whether or not they're used? IDK.
    .
     
  10. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    The cell phone network is not part of ordinary Tesla operation. If there is a crash, it attempts to 'phone home' but otherwise, mute.

    As for the San Francisco event, my understanding from other events such as coming across construction, the LIDAR shuts the vehicle down:
    upload_2023-9-6_18-3-49.png

    Shame about that recently poured concrete in the construction zone the LIDAR equipped car drove into. Then too, not every resident is enthusiastic about the LIDAR equipped cars:
    upload_2023-9-6_18-43-58.png

    Another LIDAR success:
    upload_2023-9-6_18-50-20.png

    Bob Wilson
     
    #10 bwilson4web, Sep 6, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2023
  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    My Tesla uses a vehicle resident navigation database. No network connection needed.

    When we get home, my Tesla can reach out to the 'mothership' to share saved Autopilot/FSD images and download new software.

    Bob Wilson
     
  12. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

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    Is this true?
    I've been in my Model 3 a few times- where there was zero cell service. For example in Sequoia NAtl Park and Glacier Natl Park. Trying to use a voice command to enter a navigation location -- complete fail. Trying to manually enter a destination -- total fail.

    Mike
     
  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I forgot, you're correct. I don't use voice commands other than "show <something>" which fails in a cell 'dead zone.' Then I manually identify where I want to go ... no problem then.

    Bob Wilson
     
  14. FalconSeven

    FalconSeven Active Member

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    I wonder if all those Teslas would have driven into ambulances if they had lidar?

    I think not!
     
  15. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Lidar is a very good sensor for detection. It just costs more than cameras and radar. Though it is getting cheaper.

    I doubt Cruise is using lidar only. It is tricky relying on a single sensor input for ADAS, let alone Level 5 autonomous. Subaru managed to make it work with just cameras, but the latest Eyesight out in Japan now includes radar in the forward arc. Tesla tried going camera only, but went back to radar also in a year or so.

    If a car does something unexpected or unintended, it is likely a software issue. A faulty sensor can give bad data, but the system should ignore it, and use the other sensors.
     
  16. AndersOne

    AndersOne Active Member

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    Yeah, I dont get the obsession with LIDAR here. Its very important but just one of many systems. There must be backup systems and redundancy plans for any failure. In the current state I would assume they are set to "super careful" and might stop even during smaller "inconsistencies" or "issues" - this might change in the future.
    Some competitors were too eager and now they are gone (basically just cruise/waymo left in the states). A lot for business reasons as well as there it just costs too much wihout much benefit when e.g. providing a ride service.

    Of course Tesla doesnt have this issue as the driver is 100% liable - nothing self driving here. The driver is still the one in the drivers seat by any legal means.
     
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  17. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Having worked with numerous pc Control systems on roller coasters that have multiple redundancies - where the journey is extremely over monitored & will vary very very little - you would think nothing can go wrong . yet every once in awhile bam. Out in the real world where there are infinite variabilities? Yeah go ahead and depend on lidar & see what that gets you.
    .
     
  18. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Drunk driver accident:

    A Murdoch property justifies the drunk driving by blaming Autopilot / Full Self Driving. WSJ "Dog bites man" story blames the rabies vaccination.

    My Tesla Model 3 with Autopilot and Full Self Driving is not for sale.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    This is from before Google changed the name.
    6 things I learned from riding in a Google Self-Driving Car - The Oatmeal
    "In the early versions they tested on closed courses, the vehicles were programmed to be highly aggressive. Apparently during these aggression tests, which involved obstacle courses full of traffic cones and inflatable crash-test objects, there were a lot of screeching brakes and roaring engines and terrified interns."
    The version on the public road of that test drive was set to "nervous student driver". Cruise is likely taking the cautious approach of having cars facing an issue just stopping, because a moving car can cause a lot of damage to people and property.

    Who says Cruise is just depending on lidar? Bob?
    "The Cruise AV uses Lidar, radar, and camera sensors; according to Cruise, 40% of its hardware is unique to self-driving.[41]"
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cruise_(autonomous_vehicle)#Cruise_AV

    Eyesight works with just one sensor type, but it is just Level 2, and will shut all the ADAS, including the radar based rear and side systems, off when the windshield gets too misty. Going beyond Level 2 will likely need the use of more than one sensor type. As each has limitations, that the others can cover. Lidar has great performance, but costs more. That is changing though. Toyota will be using it in some models and markets. They still likely won't just use it.
    Future Toyota Cars to be Powerd by RoboSense LiDAR for Safer Self-Driving | Business Wire
     
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  20. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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