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Saturn Vue 2-Mode

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by jonathanrohr, Mar 19, 2007.

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  1. jonathanrohr

    jonathanrohr New Member

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    Im sure people are gonna jump on me for posting 'propoganda', but regardless, this is pretty cool news:

    Front-Wheel-Drive, 2-Mode Hybrid System Debuts in 2008

    Saturn Hybrid SUV Expected to Offer Up To 45-Percent Fuel Economy Improvement

    LOS ANGELES (Nov. 29, 2006) – General Motors Corp. will expand the industry’s most diverse portfolio of hybrid technologies in 2008 with the debut of its front-wheel-drive, 2-mode hybrid system in the Saturn Vue Green Line SUV, the automaker announced at the Greater Los Angeles Auto Show.

    By using this sophisticated hybrid technology, the Vue Green Line 2-mode Hybrid is expected to deliver up to a 45-percent improvement in combined city and highway fuel economy compared with the non-hybrid Vue, based on current federal test procedures.

    “We are delivering on our promise to continue our steady rollout of additional hybrid applications, each offering different levels of affordability, fuel savings and performance,†said Tom Stephens, GM group vice president, GM Powertrain. “This will be the auto industry’s first front-wheel-drive vehicle to use a 2-mode hybrid system, which improves fuel economy while maintaining performance and capability.â€

    The Vue Green Line 2-mode Hybrid SUV will be powered by GM’s 3.6L V-6 gas engine, with direct injection and variable valve timing, a nickel-metal hydride battery pack and two active cooled permanent magnet motors.

    The front-wheel-drive, 2-mode hybrid system optimizes city and highway fuel efficiency by integrating two electric continuously variable modes with four fixed mechanical gear ratios.
    This design is similar to the 2-mode hybrid system for rear-wheel-drive applications, which will debut next year in the Chevrolet Tahoe and GMC Yukon full-size SUVs.

    The 2-mode hybrid system improves fuel economy by the following operations:
    Engine off at idle
    Low speed electric-only propulsion
    Electric boosting during brisk acceleration, climbing steep grades or towing
    Cutting off fuel to the engine during vehicle deceleration
    Regenerative braking
    Engine speed and load control

    “The 2-mode hybrid system has the flexibility to improve fuel efficiency across a range of vehicles,†Stephens said. “For example, in 2003, we introduced the 2-mode hybrid system for transit buses. In 2007, the Chevrolet Tahoe and GMC Yukon 2-mode full-size SUVs will debut, followed by the Vue Green Line 2-mode in 2008.â€

    By using two electric modes and four fixed gear ratios, the 2-mode hybrid system’s electric motors are smaller, compared with traditional “one-mode†hybrid systems, and impose no significant limitation on the size of the engine.

    Consequently, the 2-mode hybrid system fits into the same space as a conventional automatic transmission, minimizing packaging, cost and weight issues. The result is exciting performance and outstanding fuel economy.


    http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_te...008-113006.html
     
    #1 jonathanrohr, Mar 19, 2007
  2. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    Why have 4 fixed gear ratios when you can have an infinite number within a set range?

    Anyway, should've posted this in "Prius & Hybrid News" since it is a news article.. sorta.
     
    #2 Tideland Prius, Mar 20, 2007
  3. jonathanrohr

    jonathanrohr New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Mar 20 2007, 01:15 AM) [snapback]408778[/snapback]</div>
    Maybe.. but since it was written by GM, I had to be careful.
     
    #3 jonathanrohr, Mar 20, 2007
  4. SomervillePrius

    SomervillePrius New Member

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    I'm also a little surprised the use a 4 speed gear box. I'm not sure how they will be able to make the transition from battery to ICE smooth.

    Still this for me is an interesting car, if they see real world numbers around 45%. While I don't like the VUE it's the size of car I need.... I would still prefer to see it with a 4 cylinder engine.

    With 45% improvements will it be better then the new highlander?

    /Robert
     
    #4 SomervillePrius, Mar 20, 2007
  5. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SomervillePrius @ Mar 20 2007, 12:08 PM) [snapback]408944[/snapback]</div>
    Calling it a 4-speed is a bit of a stretch...


    It's essentially the same as calling the Prius a one speed...
     
    #5 Jonnycat26, Mar 20, 2007
  6. donee

    donee New Member

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    Hi All,

    Using a 3.6 liter V6 and a 2 Mode Hybrid CVT makes this kinda a power Hybrid. Especially, as the Vue is somewhat smaller than the Highlander and Escape. The Highlander is a bit of a power Hybrid too.

    I believe the 2 mode Hybrid is continuously variable, just like the Prius, in two speed reduction bands. The motors are the same size, and configured differently. Its not a bad system, and somebody pointed out that its similar to the GS-450H arrangement.

    Its about time GM got serious about the future.
     
    #6 donee, Mar 20, 2007
  7. dipper

    dipper Senior Member

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    IFFFFFF it works properly, at least GM's design will save more gas... a la more complex.

    Two mode tranny for better freeway efficiency. And further efficiency with cylinder deactivation. Top that Toyota.... its your next move. Oh, I forgot... Toyota does not even know how to do cylinder deactivation for all the hybrid expertise. :blink:

    How come no one is complaining about Toyota not stepping up? I love my Prius and all, but Toyota should not be as "good" as their F1 racing image shows. :lol:
     
    #7 dipper, Mar 20, 2007
  8. jonathanrohr

    jonathanrohr New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Mar 20 2007, 01:15 AM) [snapback]408778[/snapback]</div>
    I know someone else pointed this out already but its a CVT and a 4-Speed. I **THINK** the reasons for combining the two is because when you do lock into a set gear (one of the 4) it results in more efficent power delivery than in the CVT. I **THINK** that the CVT is thrown in the mix just to further smoothen out acceleration and the spaces between the 4 speeds.

    BMW, last I heard, was planning on leasing this design from GM on their upcoming hybrids.


    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SomervillePrius @ Mar 20 2007, 12:08 PM) [snapback]408944[/snapback]</div>
    Well this will be coming out in the new 2008 Vue (http://autos.msn.com/research/vip/futuremodel.aspx?familyid=41&pictureid=0&usage=image) so its hard to peg exact estimates (which in itself is an oxymoron). Buuut, if we base it off the 2007 I see two ways it could "improve by 45%":

    If it improves 45% over the 2007 4cyl, you would get: 32/39
    If it improves 45% over the 2007 6cyl, you would get: 29/41

    These are rounded and for auto trannys, and are also on the old EPA system.

    So if you think about it, they would both AVERAGE out to be the same MPG. You could make the argument that GM shoudlve still done it with the I4 to keep the cost down, but you have to remember that there is already the low-cost BAS Vue. Im thinking their approach is to have a bargain-half-hybrid and all-out-2mode-hybrid. But how will the differentiate the true hybrid from the BAS, will they both still be 'green line'?

    Furthermore, I think with all the time and planning GM has put into this, as well as the fact that they have alot riding on it, they were careful to make the best decision. My guess is that the 4cyl wouldve only done marginally better. Correct me if im wrong, but if you take out the extra fuel used to idle 2 more cylinders (ICE turns off at idle) and then take out the extra fuel used under heavy acceleration (electric assist), then it makes little to no difference between the 4 or the 6. Additionally, I would be willing to bet that the 6 gets better highway economy because it is more powerful, and dosent have to work as hard to go 80MPH. Its also probably a big factor that the new 3.6l V6 is GM's brand-new pride and joy VVT wonderchild, where as the I4 Ecotec is due to be significantly upgraded in 09 or 10.
     
    #8 jonathanrohr, Mar 20, 2007
  9. SomervillePrius

    SomervillePrius New Member

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    Cool! if the can get all the technology to work! Seem a little complex but if it gives the real world advantages they claim they might have a turn around on their hands....

    ANy chance FORD will do anything green? Their hybrid system went very quiet after the superbowl add!
     
    #9 SomervillePrius, Mar 20, 2007
  10. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dipper @ Mar 20 2007, 01:23 PM) [snapback]409051[/snapback]</div>
    How come no one is complaining about GM not offering cylinder-deactivation for more vehicles? Being a hybrid is not necessary.

    Of course, cylinder-deactivation is less of a gain than what fewer cylinders provide, especially if you simply just shut all of them off instead. In other words, lets compare real-world data to the additional cost for that feature.

    JOHN
     
    #10 john1701a, Mar 20, 2007
  11. dipper

    dipper Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Mar 20 2007, 03:37 PM) [snapback]409206[/snapback]</div>

    The last time I check doing all cylinder deactivation on a regular car, the car would not move.

    And having less cylinder running at constant RPM has better gas efficiency than on/off/on/off. Good example for freeway usage. Which car would get better freeway usage? One running at constant RPM, or constantly running at Max RPM and then 0 RPM (cycling back and forth)?

    The cylinder deactivation works even better if setup with HSD because the HSD could provide the little pull it needs instead of turning on the other cylinders. So it will constantly run on 3 cylinder more often until more power is really needed. If there is a 4-banger with vdc that can do that... that is even better for MPG freaks.

    And top that off with a better freeway gearing that GM is bringing, that helps even more. If the 45% improve is correct, then we have a better setup. The only question is... did GM pull a fast one on us (again), or is it real?

    So why is forcing Toyota to bring a next gen upgrade not a good idea (even if it be GM... again, if it is really for real)?
     
    #11 dipper, Mar 20, 2007
  12. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Mar 20 2007, 06:37 PM) [snapback]409206[/snapback]</div>
    GM has plenty of vehicles with cylinder deactivation... most of which are non-hybrid. :)

    But yeah, I know... if Toyota had it, you'd be all for it.
     
    #12 Jonnycat26, Mar 20, 2007
  13. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dipper @ Mar 20 2007, 08:10 PM) [snapback]409265[/snapback]</div>
    The Tahoe 2Mode Hybrid just entered production. For real. There's no denying 2Mode is real anymore.. and it does seem to be superior to HSD.

    GM's strategy is really smart here... they're using a mild system on the more inexpensive cars (70% of the benefit for 20% of the cost), and the full system is being used on cars that are more expensive and can absorb the price of the upgrade easier.
     
    #13 Jonnycat26, Mar 20, 2007
  14. dmckinstry

    dmckinstry New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Mar 20 2007, 05:25 PM) [snapback]409273[/snapback]</div>
    Hey I once had a car with cylinder deactivation. An old Buick V6 special ('64 IIRC). It burned a valve and I pulled the spark plug on that cylinder to finish a trip from Michigan to California. My gas mileage really shot up. We did a ring and valve job on it in my father-in-law's garage(home, i.e.) when we got there.

    OK. I know that isn't what you mean by cylinder deactivation, but it with the cylinder open to the air, it wasn't drawing in gas, or producing any back pressure. It ran much more smoothly on 5 cylinders than it had been running. And those early V6s weren't that smooth running anyway.

    Dave M.
     
    #14 dmckinstry, Mar 20, 2007
  15. LaughingMan

    LaughingMan Active Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Mar 20 2007, 08:38 PM) [snapback]409277[/snapback]</div>
    70% of the benefit, if you only count fuel economy under a limited driving scenarios, and if you don't count the fact that the assist-only hybrids they sell are LEV, so there's no benefit for emissions.
     
    #15 LaughingMan, Mar 20, 2007
  16. dipper

    dipper Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Mar 20 2007, 05:38 PM) [snapback]409277[/snapback]</div>
    The complain is if it is real or not, but rather if the Vue 2Mode is real to getting 45%. Uh.... lets put it in the magazine racing reporters. That means the Vue 2Mode will get no better than mid20s from the reports and Detroit news? :lol: - To be Continued.
     
    #16 dipper, Mar 21, 2007
  17. ken1784

    ken1784 SuperMID designer

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Mar 21 2007, 09:38 AM) [snapback]409277[/snapback]</div>
    It looks there is almost no advantage on Saturn Vue Hybrid BAS system in the real life mileage number compared to Toyota RAV4 2WD.
    Just $2,500 price premium on Saturn. :)

    Ken@Japan
     
    #17 ken1784, Mar 21, 2007
  18. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    I thought I read (could be wrong) this isn't even a real hybrid, but rather it meerly turns the engine off at red lights ... like the Silverado.
     
    #18 hill, Mar 22, 2007
  19. Jonnycat26

    Jonnycat26 New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Mar 22 2007, 11:26 AM) [snapback]410145[/snapback]</div>
    No... you read wrong. The Tahoe, or any 2Mode hybrid, is a bit more sophisticated than HSD. More compact, and more powerful. It's going to be available this summer in regular hybrid form, and next year with the Vue PHEV.
     
    #19 Jonnycat26, Mar 22, 2007
  20. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Mar 22 2007, 11:59 AM) [snapback]410202[/snapback]</div>
    Late Fall has been the expected arrival for ages.

    Please provide the source stating the change to an earlier date.
     
    #20 john1701a, Mar 22, 2007
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