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"Rapid shift to N accepted!"

Discussion in 'Gen 4 Prius Technical Discussion' started by The Professor, Jan 20, 2020.

  1. The Professor

    The Professor Senior Member

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    So today I was happily driving along at around 30MPH, when I accidentally knocked the shift lever, and tapped it over to N. The car beeped and displayed the message "Rapid shift to N accepted!", and indeed the car was in Neutral. Not seen that message before!

    In other circumstances, you have to hold the shift level over to N for a couple of seconds for it to engage.

    Now I'm wondering what this all means...

    1. Why would you want to shift to N while driving in a Prius at speed? I get why you'd want to do this while stationary (e.g. certain car washes, certain methods of being towed, etc), but I can't think of a scenario where you'd want to do that while moving.
    2. Why does the car only shift to N if you hold the shift lever on N in some circumstances, yet will allow a "rapid shift" in other circumstances? What's wrong with just allowing rapid, or slow, all the time?
    3. What are the circumstances that dictate whether rapid or slow shifting is required?
     
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  2. Salamander_King

    Salamander_King Senior Member

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    I have no answer to any of your questions. But it sound interesting enough to follow the discussion.

    I've never seen that message on my PRIME, but I've had trouble placing in N while stationary at a car wash. So, after you got your car shifted to N at 30mph, were you able to bring back to D without any problem?
     
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  3. The Professor

    The Professor Senior Member

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    At a car wash, I think the trick is to hold it over in the N position for a couple of seconds, while pressing the brake. At least I think that's what it tells you to do on the screen... maybe you don't need the brake.

    I immediately tried to put it back in D, and it beeped at me again with a message telling me to take my foot off the accelerator before entering D. I did that, and tapped it over to D again, and it entered D immediately. That makes sense, as you don't want your car zooming off at full throttle unexpectedly.
     
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  4. The Professor

    The Professor Senior Member

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    I think I may have answered my own question number 2 and 3 there... It might not be a good time to press your brake when travelling at speed, just to engage N. So maybe that's why it can do a "rapid shift" to N, and by rapid it means you don't need to press the brake or hold it for 2 seconds (Question 2). So the circumstances become whether your moving or not (Question 3).
     
  5. mistermojorizin

    mistermojorizin Active Member

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    I shift to N at speed to activate "glide" from the "pulse and glide" gas saving technique. Gliding is more efficient than keeping it in D and letting it regen IF you have enough room to glide without having to stop or slow down quickly. I don't touch the brakes until I shift back to D and use regen braking.

    I have noticed that I can usually rapid shift to N, except when stopped, but I don't know the specific conditions. It's not really addressed in the manual.
     
  6. The Professor

    The Professor Senior Member

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    Aha, that's a good point. It's something very few people seem to understand, is that it's actually more efficient to use the ICE over the electric motor (unless the battery is full), as the energy stored in the battery always comes from the ICE in one way or another, and hence has always incurred a conversion loss.

    To achieve that lossless glide, I've always tried to really gently press the accelerator, just the right amount, so that on the energy monitor display there are no arrows shown at all. I can find that spot maybe 1 in 3 tries, and I can keep it there for maybe 10 to 15 seconds at most, usually 5. That sweet spot does exist! But it's dangerous as I'm watching the display, not the road.

    Rapid Shifting to N is the obvious solution. Thank you!

    EDIT: Other than the beep every time it engages... :D
     
  7. mistermojorizin

    mistermojorizin Active Member

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    You can slow shift to N also, to avoid the beep (just hold the stick longer in the N position). Also, it's not just an ICE vs Electric question, the act of slowing down with regen recoups maybe 20% of the energy, while letting it just glide in N lets you use closer to 100% of the energy you used to pulse (accelerate).
     
  8. The Professor

    The Professor Senior Member

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    Yep - that's what I was referring to in terms of conversion losses. The amount of energy you will be able to re-deliver to the wheels after it has been recovered via regen, is always less than the energy that there in the first place. So you're better using it to glide in Neutral, than to Regen some of it (some losses), store it in the battery (more losses), release it from the battery (losses yet again) and power the electric motor (more losses still).

    Thanks for the holding the shift lever in N trick. I guess it always allows you to slow-shift, without much complaint, at any speed.
     
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  9. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    How much regeneration is the car doing when coasting in D with both pedals untouched? I don't have the same model as you, but I get the feeling that there aren't a lot of savings to capture with all that effort.
     
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  10. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    This "Rapid Shift" message is newer than my Gen3, so I can't give a complete answer for Gen4. But will address some other portions:
    Do you remember the Toyota Sudden Unintended Acceleration scare and hysteria nearly a decade ago? Similar to the runaway Audis a couple decades earlier? People were experiencing alleged runaway cars with surging engines. Shifting to N is one way to gain control of such a runaway vehicle. The ease and intuitiveness of shifting to N in manual transmissions is one reason why manuals are far less frequently involved in SUA-type crashes than are automatic transmissions.
    At speed, my Gen3 will instantly shift to N if I push the shift lever to R. This is because it recognizes highway speed R as an error, so defaults to the safe choice of N, while giving a double-beep warning. Does your Gen4 issue the same double-beep as my Gen3, or does it give this "Rapid shift accepted" message instead?

    I occasionally practice this at-speed R shift as a faster path to N, just in case I ever need it for an SUA incident.
     
  11. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

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    Never heard of "rapid" shift. I wonder if it detected an "illegal" shift attempt (ie it thought you'd tapped it to go to R?) - and moved to "N" which is a fail-safe position for many illegal movements?

    Or maybe not. Have you been able to check the Data Log?
     
  12. Elektroingenieur

    Elektroingenieur Senior Member

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    The Electronic Shift Lever Control topic in New Car Features (more info) mentions this behavior but doesn’t explain the reason for it:

    (6) While the vehicle is being driven at a certain speed or more, the shift state can be changed to neutral (N) without having to hold the shift lever in neutral (N) for a certain amount of time. In this case, the buzzer in the combination meter assembly sounds (once), the master warning light blinks and a confirmation message is displayed on the multi-information display.

    The Repair Manual says a Vehicle Control History event, “Quick Shift Operation to Shift Position N during Running” (X050A), is also recorded.

    I checked FMVSS No. 102 and SAE J915 and didn’t see anything requiring this behavior; I think @fuzzy1's explanation is as likely as any. It might be worth searching the patent literature, I suppose.
    That’s a different one, “Shift R Operation during Forward Movement” (X0508).
     
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  13. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

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    ... depends on how fast you're going - I had a deserted road, I realised I had an intersection in a couple of kilometres so left it in D, no pedals - and it increased 2 bars from 100 down to about 30. But I can't recall what incline it was, slight downhill I think. I only had 3 bars of battery.

    And, of course, counting bars is very inaccurate - it could be showing 3 bars, but almost 3 - or almost 2.
     
  14. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    ... and different bars have different sizes too.
     
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  15. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

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    Not that I drink - or know where "Put-In-Bay" is ...

    upload_2020-1-21_17-2-49.png
     
  16. The Professor

    The Professor Senior Member

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    You're right... it's just part of the hypermiling game. If I pluck some random numbers out of thin air, and ballpark it at about 10% of the maximum regen (based on how much regen the acceleration gauge is visually showing), and assume a best case scenario of around 10% conversion losses each way (20% total), that means you could be saving as little as 20% of 10% = 0.5% by gliding in N versus gliding with no pedals being touched. On the other hand, if conversion losses are high (e.g. 80% total), you could be saving an additional 8% of your energy. It's closer to the former :D
     
  17. The Professor

    The Professor Senior Member

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    If you tap the lever right into N (I assume it's the same for LHD and RHD cars), it immediately gives the message and shifts into N. If you hold it in N, it shifts after a second or 2. I'm too chicken to try engaging R at speed :D I *know* it won't accept it, but I'm still too chicken.
     
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  18. The Professor

    The Professor Senior Member

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    Not looked at the Data Log (is that a Toyota TechStream feature?), but I've tested this quite a few times now, and I'm not moving into R, just N. As above, I'm too chicken to try engaging R at speed, even though I know the car won't let me.
     
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  19. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Strikes me that it's worth monitoring with a scangauge or the like to put some real numbers on it. Might help put it in perspective vs. the added workload/distraction.

    I reckon there's a familiarity to it as well. In traditional cars where neutral physically disengaged the engine from the wheels there were much greater savings to be had. That's something I did in old cars.

    Personally, I've long since retired the technique of using any form of neutral on a public way on the grounds of safety. I don't like adding steps before I can take positive control of the car when reacting to a surprise. No big deal on a track, but I no longer risk it in public.

    Both my wife and I did not like the information content vs. screen space quotient of the "bars" display, so we banished it for the simple display. Fuel level, clock, instant MPG and outside temp.
     
    #19 Leadfoot J. McCoalroller, Jan 21, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2020
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  20. alanclarkeau

    alanclarkeau Senior Member

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    I don't need all the fancy screens now I'm used to driving a Hybrid.

    The HUD shows:
    upload_2020-1-21_22-54-9.png , so I've got the 8 bars - if I look - it's sometimes handy if I'm looking to get a better l/100km. I think I can change the HUD to only show the speed.

    On the main display, I generally have this display - which isn't distracting at all:
    upload_2020-1-21_22-56-21.png