Questions regarding the eco-friendliness of the Prius and the business ethics of Toyota

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(budding philanthropist @ Jul 19 2007, 09:37 PM) [snapback]482033[/snapback]</div>

"...and, uh, why don't you do the really responsible thing and import cars from overseas yourself?"

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(budding philanthropist @ Jul 20 2007, 12:37 AM) [snapback]482033[/snapback]</div>

Life is all about compromises and trade-offs. There are cars that get better mileage and cost less to boot, but they have trade-offs. Generally you have to trade off vehicle size and/or acceleration capabilities for greater efficiency. Hybrids use advanced technology to completely change the landscape of the trade-offs, adding whole new dimensions to play with. With a hybrid you can trade-off initial purchase price and trunk space for improved efficiency with no trade-offs to overall vehicle size or acceleration.

Also, there are lots of pollution benefits besides carbon reduction, such as smog and asthma-causing emissions, for which hybrids are nearly unparalleled. This can be particularly important in congested cities, where turning off the engine in stop-and-go traffic is a huge "low-hanging fruit" benefit.

 

Please, don't feed the troll. Really. He's spouting off incorrect facts as truths, and trying to bait you.

Just don't even respond.

I will not post again to this thread.

TROLL: BACK UNDER THE BRIDGE! NOW!

Nate

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(budding philanthropist @ Jul 20 2007, 02:11 AM) [snapback]482079[/snapback]</div>

TDIs are too dirty to sell in all 50 states. They might be comparable in MPG and since they pollute too much, they are not part of the solution.

Civic CRX does not conform to today's safety nor performance standards. It is a choice that very few people are willing to sacrifice.

Show me any car in the whole world that is comparable to Prius in term of performance efficiency (acceleration and MPG), Super Ultra partial zero low emission, safety, reliability, features (luxury), affordability, availability AND it is automatic.

 

The TDI is only available in the Passat, and it gets much worse mileage than the Prius. It WILL NOT be available next year in Canada. It's not being "banned" by the govt., it's Volkswagen's decision. Something about not being able to meet pollution requirements.

As far as the other examples given, do they meet crash test requirements? How about vehicle life requirements? Service? Are they really comparable to a Prius (seat four - luggage capacity)? How about recycle ability? Emissions?

Apples to apples, please!

 

Resonable answers or Troll (anti-)food:
1) Reward Toyota for taking one step (out of the ten needed) in the right direction. No money for the other manufactures who did nothing. Voting with wallet works. Just takes a little time.
2) The Prius is engineered to save gas. I want to save gas. What car is better? (That is a true family car I can buy here in North America).
3) The way to reduce carbon dioxide emissions is to not emit. (Burning any hydrocarbon is emitting CO2.) The Prius is good at this when not driven.....or at stop lights.

And one last analogy: A nicotine patch is better than smoking. The Prius is great since it is one true, unmistakable step in the right direction, not because it is the final step.


That was civil.

 

Hi budding...

Well, my experience with the Prius is its the only car that has met the OLD EPA mileage ratings I have ever had. And that is driving faster than 55 MPH when traffic allows.

Never driven a TDI. Smell em all the time.

Biodiesel is not free. SVO (Straight Vegatable Oil) is not even free anymore. And get caught in Illinois not paying road taxes on any untaxed SVO you burn in your car, and its a IRS (Illinois Revenue Service) nightmare. Check out the news.

Last three tanks have been over 59 mpg. Including running the AC when its over 82 F and brief highway speeds up to 68 mph.

It seems to me that the EPA underestimates Hybrid car mileage, because they have no way to gauge down hill regeneration. In the real world, when you go down a hill, the Prius recovers 80 % of the energy used to climb the hill by electric generation. As far as the EPA is concerned, gas burned is gas done. In a Prius gas burned, may be electricity generated a 1/2 mile later, and motor power a mile after that. In a standard car and VW Diesel, up a hill, and down the hill you just heat the brakes - that s how the EPA gauges it.

So, if you change that (underestimate) behind the Prius mileages to (dead on estimate) , and put (underestimate) behind every other gasoline cars EPA mileage on the market, and you will be allot closer to what I have experienced. I really see the downgrading of the Prius mileage by a bigger fraction for the new ratings, to be some kinda of non-tarrif trade barrier.

Biodiesel is still a hydrocarbon fuel. And burning it still emits hydrocarbon waste, particulates and NOx. A stopped idling TDI is still putting out this stuff, while a stopped engine-off Prius is not.

Oh and why did you leave out the cargo volume (rear seat down) in the Prius?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(budding philanthropist @ Jul 20 2007, 03:16 PM) [snapback]482484[/snapback]</div>

/me shrugs

I have a freeway commute of 20 miles and my present mileage is 53.4. And I haven't really been trying very hard. There are pictures others have taken around here with much higher results.

The one thing I don't like is the idea that if you buy a Prius, you must be out to make a statement, and then you suck because you didn't reach very far to make it, while those who pick other cars clearly aren't out to make statements and so don't need to be knocked off their soapboxes. This is the most common argument I encounter regarding my choice of a Prius -- "you're not actually helping the environment". I decided I wanted a new car, I decided I wanted a bunch of fancy extras in it, and then I liked the fact that my gas bills got cut in half. This is good enough for most people; why is it just me that falls under the microscope?

There are all sorts of other things I would do if environmental footprint was my biggest concern. I freely admit that it is not.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(budding philanthropist @ Jul 20 2007, 12:37 AM) [snapback]482033[/snapback]</div>

Simply put - I'm 6'4". Headroom is a very big deal for me - on some cars I can look through the top of the sunroof while still sitting in the driver's seat. After visiting over 15 car dealerships in search of a car that would fit me IMHO the Prius was the best option.

For what it's worth - here's the list of the also-rans

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(budding philanthropist @ Jul 20 2007, 07:43 PM) [snapback]482614[/snapback]</div>

All 2008 model year cars will receive revised lower EPA mileage figures, not just the Prius. I regularly achieve 52-54 MPG in my every day driving which is 30% highway, 60% suburban and 10% city. I just love how you pick and choose to accept only the facts that support your argument. I suppose that is the reason that you listed the cargo volume for the Golf with and without the rear seat down while at the same time you listed the cargo volume for the Prius only with the rear seat up. That was obviously intended to make the Golf appear better in comparison to the Prius.

Why are we not discussing emissions and how, contrary to your assertions, neither VW nor MBZ' most high tech Diesel automobiles can meet the California clean air standards even for the 2008 model year?

You are using typical tactics of a narrow minded person with a biased agenda.

 

Time for a little [attachmentid=9965] feeding!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(budding philanthropist @ Jul 20 2007, 07:43 PM) [snapback]482614[/snapback]</div>

The Volkswagon Golf has been discontinued in the US, as has the Passat mentioned above. In the interest of fairness (brand new vehicle vs. brand new vehicle), and since you mention "newer model TDIs" above, I am using a new TDI Jetta for comparison. There are some minor differences in the specs - the Jetta is 4" longer, 1" wider, has a wheelbase that is 4" smaller, and out weighs the Prius by about 400 lbs - these really shouldn't have any bearing on what I'm looking to compare here. The 500 lb gorilla, when comparing a Toyota to a Volkswagon, is reliabilty, young padawan. Reliabilty histories are copied from www.consumerreports.org.

The Volkswagon:

[attachmentid=9967]

The Prius:

[attachmentid=9968]

Now, I did this comparison on NEW vehicles. When you compare used, it gets worse. Unless you are using a fuel efficent tow-truck to pull the VW to the shop, I'm sticking with the Prius. Thanks for playing.

 

I think this is an excellent discussion as I presently stand on the brink of buying my wife's grandfather's '05 Prius, but wish I could find a TDI Volkswagen. I think there is a valid debate between the hybrid technology (as implemented by Toyota) and TDI technology (as implemented by VW). I also don't think there is any perfect solution in existence for claiming the pissing rights to being "green". Actually, numerous "alternative fuel" technologies could coexist in the marketplace and in sum would be far better than the status quo of pollution and fossil fuel dependence.

On one hand, the 05 Prius we're buying tomorrow is loaded with every available feature but the sunroof, has 7,500 miles and he's selling it for only $18K. (~$20k after taxes and registration/doc fees.) It's silver and in immaculate condition. I love all the gadgets and features, but I don't prefer the ergonomics and dislike the driving feel. And it has no style, IMO. Grandpa's averaged over 55 miles over the life of the vehicle, and its really not even broken in yet. So I like that frugality a lot. But we do want a commuter car and this is a great value for a Prius. So my wife is sold, and me reluctantly so. I do agree with BP's assertion that the gas-engine aspect of Toyota's hybrid is really not that impressive for "greenness"; it's riding the coattails of the electric engine--and frankly it just begs the question of the need for an all-electric vehicle in the market for commuters like me.

On the other hand, I love the VW Jetta TDI wagons, but I've searched for months to no avail for a fair priced one. Since they are presently unavailable new in the market, I've seen used ones loaded with up to 30-40k of miles and owners are asking $21K-23K for one--almost as expensive as buying a brand new one--if brand new wagons were available. I trust the long term reliability of diesel far better. And based on my neighbors and friends who drive VW TDIs I have high confidence that they are very reliable. (Though even at their best a VW is never as reliable as a Toyota.) I do like the cargo capacity, better towing torque, styling, ergonomics and driving performance FAR better. That said, it will never perform like my sport-tuned '99 VW Passat--which I love-- so I'm not expecting as much of a TDI. (And I'm already acclimated to spending a little more for parts and maintenance.) Still a TDI has more of a "Driver's" feel than a Prius.

And the frugality of fuel in a TDI is impressive. The people I know who drive them (Jetta sedans, Passat sedans and Beetles) get 45mpg, sometimes higher. However, VW has been reluctant to officially get behind biodiesel other than B5 blends--hardly an impressive "green" solution per se. But they are coming around to backing B20 blends, although Utah Biodiesel Cooperative members I know have had success running B50, and depending on seasonality, B100 in VWs of the last few years. B50 is available at limited stations in our area, and home-brewing one's own B100 is hardly a practical market solution. So the Prius gets the nod for fuel convenience, too. And while biodiesel wins on the front of ending dependence on foreign oil, it still produces carbon emissions that, while better than most diesels, is not of the calibre of performance the Prius obtains. (Emissions are not as good as BP claims.) VW is re-engineering so that their TDIs will be able to be sold in California, where they are presently banned from being sold (as well in a few other states). It is arguable that the new injection technology will not be officially supported with biodiesel use for some time, beyond the B5 blends, possibly even B20 at some point soon thereafter. But the future is hopeful for biodiesel being even more desirable and eco-friendly than it presently is.

I love the SMART cars, having been to Europe, but they are not well considered for a snowy environment in which I live. (And B100 biodiesel is not that winter friendly either.) Parking's not a major issue for me, and while I'd still love it around town I agree with others that have questioned its worthiness as a freeway car. And it easily sells for over $24k in our area, $10k over the list price. They're not readily available, though not impossible to find, either. So while a cute designed car, there is no way I'd pay that much for style only to give up so much in cost.

I am totally unimpressed right now with the carrot people hold out for hydrogen fuel cells. If I could have my druthers I'd love if VW would design a TDI/electric hybrid, or a full electric vehicle. But I think I'd be happier if I could find a TDI Jetta wagon. (Don't like the new Passats at all.) Till then, though, I expect I'll be posting here in the forum as a "new" Prius owner.

As for "ethics" between Toyota and VW, again I think there is no reason for any pissing contest. Neither company has been as innovative as they could be, but they both have done better than the American automakers. So I agree that the present solutions may be non-ideal, but they are a worthy enough evolution to deserve the "vote" consumers are making with their wallets. Though I also agree that it is fair to be skeptical of the value of that "vote" beyond feel-good issues. (Hybrids, when bought new, presently have a long incremental payoff time compared to equally equipped dino versions of the same model, same manufacturer. And the government is now out of the business of offering tax incentives to knock down that incremental markup Toyota and othetr hybrid manufacturers are stabbing consumers with. And the long term reliability look good, but certainly the jury is still out.)

However, with more experience with our Prius, I may even come around to like the Prius better or as well as a TDI.

 

Since I have a Corolla-- not a Prius, I think I might have some other observations re:Toyota.
I do NOT think they are some kind of model company-- not a sort of Google version of the auto industry
(if google is even a model-- but heck they serve free gourmet meals and have heated toilet seats).


However, they (and i would also add Honda and VW to this list, and some others) have made some
business choices that American and some other car competitors have not made. Their companies have
made choices where the line of products (with exceptions) tends to be higher mileage etc. Now I do NOt
think they are really some goodie two shoes company, but meanwhile GM et al has made very different
decisions. Ford has cancelled (now i heard they might bring it back) the Taurus, which would make an
excellent hybrid.


One of the advantages of hybrids is that they are step off CO emitting fuels. You cant' even say that about
corn oil, ethanol, switch grass, etc. Diesel is fossil fuel as well-- too bad as I think Mr. Diesel had other ideas. You add a plug and then theoretically the fuel COULD come from alternative fuels. So far Toyota hasn't done this. But rumor has it they are closer in. Hybrid technology also spurs on the development of batteries, which would be a good thing for solar power cars. The other thing is that with the exception of ethanol mixes, the ohters are a little hard to get. Unless you happen to have your own still. My dad had a diesel and it was not fun trying to find gas when the tank was low.

But all this is just business. Do I think some businesses are better than others-- yes. But i think that all businesses want to make money. Brand loyalty comes when a brand can consistently deliver a product with superior workmanship, etc. I think that's one reason you see brand loyalty high for Toyota. If their cars starting falling apart, then you'd see loyalty drop precipitacely.

BTW, I have noticed a lot of people jump on a thread as a troll. I agree there are such a thing. I also don't understand why someone comes on a board of Mac users (say) and bashes Macs (or Prius drivers and bashes Prius). But I do think he has some legitimate points.

I just think he has mistaken brand loyalty for some slavish devotional cult. If Toyota starting turning out bad Prius you'd see that loyalty go to zero.

Also I think that the environmental responsibiity aspect is misunderstood. Though many Prius drivers seem to do quite well, even hypermiling, I think most of us know that the figures the EPA puts out are not based on real driving. (Even though some people ARE driving quite close to them.) The thing is, that when the EPA comes out with the new figures, ALL cars will get new figures. It seems that there is the impression that somehow only hybrids will get these new figures. But whatever, if you drive an Accura or Taurus, you would get significantly poorer mileage, so I think you should be comparing midsize with midsize. I'm also guessing that the readouts are acting as behavioral reinforcement so that drivers will attempt to improve their performance. So I will guess new EPA figures will end up being too low.


--des