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Prius 12V battery charging at 14.9V/10A???

Discussion in 'Prius v Main Forum' started by TWrecks99, Dec 8, 2020.

  1. TWrecks99

    TWrecks99 New Member

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    My 2012 PriusV 12V battery died and was just replaced by the dealer yesterday. It had been having issues for a couple weeks and needed jumpstarts when left off for even a day or two at the end so was no doubt failing. It was probably 4 years old, so maybe not surprising.

    However I just double checked the new battery - The diagnostic menu, OBD, and a voltmeter all tell me its charging voltage at 14.9V - Is that possibly correct? I checked the charge current with a clamp-on DC meter and its 10A. The battery label says max charging current is 4.2A. When I got home from dealer the voltage in standby was 11.9V, so its probable they did not fully charge it before install. I ran it for 20min last night, this morning the voltage was 12.4V in standby..

    I spoke with the Toyota service rep, who checked with a technician, and said that 14.9V was fine for Prius... I find it hard to believe. I googled but don't see anyone else mentioning a voltage that high. I am wondering if it is killing the battery over time. However it's not throwing any fault codes as far as I can tell.

    Thanks-

    Tim
     
  2. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    It is ok if the battery was in a significantly discharged state. I think a Battery Tender Jr would be a good $30 investment if that battery is not fully charged yet. You should see 12.7v after running it enough to get a full charge. That standby voltage may drop overnight to maybe 12.4-12.5 on a new battery so you are probably ok. Don't keep the keyfob too close to the car as it will increase standby current and ensure your map lights and cargo light goes off.
     
    #2 rjparker, Dec 8, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2020
  3. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    But only for a short period of time......like maybe 5 minutes or less.
    I second the suggestion for leaving it on a 5 amp or less charger for maybe 12 hours and then see what happens.

    IF.....the onboard system is/was charging it at 14.9 ALL the time, it likely damaged the old battery.....and will do the same to the new one too.

    A totally healthy, fully charged AGM battery should read 12.8 or maybe even 12.9.
    And then sitting overnight with no load or a tiny load should not go below 12.6.
     
  4. TWrecks99

    TWrecks99 New Member

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    Just drove 70mi, the battery was at 14.8~14.9V the whole time. Doesn't seem right... is there a definitive spec somewhere on the 12V battery charging voltage? I need to go back to toyota with something as they are saying its normal...

    Tim
     
  5. TWrecks99

    TWrecks99 New Member

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    Checked it about 2hr after I drove it, was at 12.4V in standby, 12.1V with headlights on. Still went to 14.9V charging. If the sticker says charge for 10hrs at 4.2A, then I guess at 10A it needs 4.2hrs for full charge (assuming it was very depleted when they installed it). I only drove it for about 2hrs in total since the replacement, so perhaps its just not fully charged yet...
     
  6. cnc97

    cnc97 Senior Member

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    I watch my system voltage to and from work and around town. I see a voltage of 13.96-14.01 reported by my OBD device. I just put a new battery in the week of Thanksgiving.
     
  7. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    If it does not drop to 13.x it means the battery isn't charged enough yet. The dc to dc converter in the inverter has an elaborate charging algorithm like the best chargers. I would get a maintenance charger and ensure the battery is desulfated and fully charged. AGM Batteries And Testing -
     
  8. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    That is because it is NOT right.
    Your battery needs to be tested......thoroughly.
    If the "system" thinks it is very low on charge, it can charge at that voltage for a a short time but ONLY a short time.
    Second time saying this.
     
  9. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    And batteries fail MUCH more often than the charging system does.
    It is likely that battery will NEVER charge "enough".
     
  10. TWrecks99

    TWrecks99 New Member

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    So the battery is only 2 days old at this point, newly installed at dealer.

    I left the car in "ready" all morning for about 4 hours. Charge voltage stayed at 14.9V +-0.1V the whole time. Charge current into the battery dropped to about 0.5A after starting at 10A initially, so it seems like it is fully charged. Battery never got close to warm to the touch (ambient here is about 33F/1C right now).After shutting off the car and putting it into standby, the voltage was 12.8V. Drain was about 10A. After 30s of headlights it was down to 12.4V.

    In the off state, car locked, all lights off, keys not on me, I see current drain bouncing around 1A +- 0.2A. Unfortunately the meter powers down a couple of min later so without staying in the trunk of a locked freezing car I can't see what it settles out at. However the overnight voltage drop on the battery would also indicate excess current drain in the off state.

    So assuming the new battery is not junk it sounds like the consensus is a charging (inverter? :( ) issue.

    Which is the fuse they recommend to pull if you're leaving the car off for a couple weeks?

    I'll probably bring it back to the dealer shortly, but their "its normal" response over the phone was not encouraging.

    Thanks

    Tim
     
  11. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    i would focus on the parasitic current. If it is "1A +- 0.2A" that is way too much. It should stabilize from 20ma to maybe 90 ma. One owner right now is trying to reduce his measured 90 ma. Make sure the hatch light is not staying on and no odb2 adapter is left plugged in. I might run the negative battery amp draw test leads outside of the hatch with a meter in circuit to verify the actual current after an hour. If still high get somebody to fix it. That much parasitic amp draw can kill your new battery in a relatively short time.

    If it is a choice between a bad battery or a bad inverter charging circuit, the odds are your new battery is defective.

    As far as a fuse to pull for two weeks, there really is not an easy one. The overall fusible link is in the battery positive terminal and is bolted in as is the engine fusible link block. Even if you simply disconnected the battery negative you would still have an issue opening the hatch manually from inside.

    The best option for one day or two weeks is a good lithium jump pack in the cabin plus resolution of the parasitic draw issue if it remains high. At that point, with a good battery, it will start after two weeks without you disconnecting anything. Personally, I have parked three weeks at the airport without disconnecting anything and had no issues. It was a Toyota battery which lasted almost eight years.

    If the car is stored at your house, I would absolutely put a Battery Tender Jr on it to ensure ensure a charged battery. If you can't use a charger and want to disconnect the negative lead, a jump pack or a small alarm style agm would be enough to power the system and allow the electric hatch lock to work. Of course, if you do disconnect, use the mechanical key inside the keyfob to enter and open the hood.
     
    #11 rjparker, Dec 9, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2020
  12. TWrecks99

    TWrecks99 New Member

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    Car is back at dealer that replaced the battery. We'll see what they come up with. I listed the drain, battery test and charge voltage as issues. The car does have a non-toyota remote starter (installed at delivery by the same dealership). Hmm wonder where that got fused.

    I had the original battery (replaced a few years back) go dead at the airport after two weeks, it had nothing left no lights, locks or noises. Nothing like coming back from a 10hr redeye with the whole family to a dead car in a 12F parking garage. Fortunately the garage kept a tow/jump truck on site and it started right up with a jump. I bought a lithium jump pack after that. But with this latest issue prior to the new battery, one jump hasn't been enough I had to recharge and do it again.

    Unfortunately I can't leave a battery tender plugged in at my parking space. Also can't install a EV charging station - that's going to be a future issue. I do have southern exposure so was considering a solar tender, of course that won't work at an airport garage either.

    I thought there was a recommendation to shut off the smart keys systems or such when left standing for a week or more?

    Thanks-

    Tim
     
  13. Air_Boss

    Air_Boss Senior Member

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    We see a range of 14.1V - 14.9V and 0.1A - 1.0A depending on (low) no-load or (high) cabin device charging load.
     
  14. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    OR SUCH.....would certainly include an after-market remote start I would think.
     
  15. TWrecks99

    TWrecks99 New Member

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    So as expected the dealer tested the battery and said it was fine. They said it would cost $260 to test/troubleshoot the charging system and current drain which was the same as a new battery so why bother, so I called their bluff and then they basically refused to do it. They assured me that 14.9V is normal, and kept saying the battery had a 2yr warranty so why was I worrying. Also had an interesting discussion with the service rep telling me how I needed to rev the engine to really charge the 12V battery:) I was not charged for anything.

    I did discover how to disable the meter auto-off feature. After an hour off, no keys, no odb it's reading 0.3A.
     
  16. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i don't know about revving the engine, but prius is not a good battery charger. more of a maintainer.
     
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  17. Air_Boss

    Air_Boss Senior Member

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    Agree.
     
  18. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    It is kind of sad when a Toyota service advisor tells you to rev your Prius to charge the battery. And "don't worry, the battery has a long warranty". Obviously they are more salesmen than techs.

    Are you using your clamp-on dc amp meter to measure standby milliamps? DC clamps are usually not real accurate below an amp unless it is a high dollar Fluke or equivalent. Most of us break the negative battery lead and use a meters internal amp shunt. Its tricky because the initial surge may be over 10 amps so its a good idea to jumper at first, wait a few minutes and then disconnect the jumper. See pic.

    0.3 amps (300ma) is still too high. A back of the napkin calculation gives you about 3 days on the safe side. I will check my car in the next couple of days and give you my draw.

    The calc I use takes half of the amp hour capacity divided by the parasitic draw. That gives you the number of hours. Then divide by 24 to get the number of days. So the Toyota battery is about 40 amp hours, divided by 2 equals 20 amp hours usable. (20 / 0.3) / 24 = 2.77 days.

    At 35ma it is (20 / 0.035) / 24 = 23.8 days. Big difference. 36D6588A-7294-4ED0-BB79-D7385F46B8E0.jpeg
     
    #18 rjparker, Dec 10, 2020
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2020
  19. TWrecks99

    TWrecks99 New Member

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    Yup I did the same math... I am using a inexpensive clamp meter, but I have bench tested it and its fairly accurate at 1A, and useable down to 0.1A (if zero'd properly) though it could be off 20% or so. It will detect current as low as 0.025A but very inaccurate and unstable. I supposed I could borrow the Tektronix one from work but it seems overkill at the moment. If I can get it down to 0.1A then a shunt meter is next.

    I'm curious if the 14.9V charge voltage will change over time... does the car somehow know it got a new battery and is doing some conditioning? Is that a temperature sensor mounted on top of the battery? Does that affect charge rate?

    If its nice out Saturday I will start pulling fuses, I guess I need to find where they hooked in the remote starter. Then what? Too bad there isn't an easy way to measure the drain from under the hood where I could actually see the meter while pulling fuses.

    Is there a detailed fuse diagram somewhere online? The manual doesn't give much besides the name and rating. And I saw at least 2 smart-key fuses.

    Tim
     
  20. rjparker

    rjparker Tu Humilde Sirviente

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    There is a main 12v feed that comes to the engine fuse box. I am sure it is bolted on from the bottom to the fusible link block in that fuse box. You might dc clamp it as it goes into the box. It should be ~1/4" diameter but I have never had a need to find it on my gen3. This box feeds the interior fuse box.

    I would try the direct meter shunt method. I have a couple of dc clamps and they don't work well at low ma and read high. You don't want to chase a ghost.

    The charge voltage should not be a concern. If there is a big drain the inverter's dc to dc is just reacting to a low charge level. It does have a dc sense input but no battery temp. There is a big fusible link in the positive battery terminal.

    The inverter does not fast charge the 12v battery. AGM batteries don't cook like normal lead acid batteries and are more forgiving of moderate discharges from a longevity standpoint.

    Toyota sells online and downloadable reference material at their TIS site. Two days are $20. Electrical is many separate docs but once you get there download as much as you can.

    Find the remote start and remove it. My guess its in the interior fuse box.

    TIS pricing via the Subscribe button
    https://techinfo.toyota.com/techInfoPortal/appmanager/t3/ti?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=ti_home_page&contextType=external&username=string&password=secure_string&challenge_url=https://techinfo.toyota.com/techInfoPortal/login/techinfo&request_id=-7329740227515440686&authn_try_count=0&locale=en_US&resource_url=https%3A%2F%2Ftechinfo.toyota.com%2F