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PHEV - Is this the heavy duty hybrid we've been waiting for?

Discussion in 'Other Cars' started by Tideland Prius, May 11, 2017.

  1. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    I'd like to start a discussion on the merits of PHEVs. Yes they're a bridge between hybrids and BEVs (imo) and they are limited in the sense that if the AER is too low, might as well save money and buy a hybrid (which have come down in price and are essentially now, at least with some Toyotas, the price of a powertrain upgrade. i.e. it's the same price one would've paid for an upgrade to a V6 from a I4 or a V8 from a V6. The difference is that you get better fuel economy with your power bump). If the AER is too large, well then why not make the jump to a BEV? (yes I know.. just give me this one).

    So.... assuming there is a sweet spot, is the PHEV the hybrid that will finally give us the hybrid pickup truck, SUV or minivan (ok Chrysler has done it but that's my point) that will give us both the fuel economy we want.

    Hybrid minivans (if I recall correctly) didn't have the fuel economy number great enough to warrant production. IOW, it either had not enough power or it had adequate power but the FE improvement wasn't good enough that manufacturers felt they could market it as a fuel saver hybrid.

    Chrysler has launched the Pacific as a PHEV and it can get the mileage you expect a hybrid to give you, with minimal compromises. (e.g. space intrusion, weight, price).

    So has Chrysler started a trend where we will start to see PHEVs for heavier cars like full size SUVs, pickups and minivans, while leaving hybrids for passenger cars and small SUVs?

    It allows manufacturers to get ZEV credits, it allows consumers to get the fuel economy numbers and for pickup trucks, it can even allow for proper 110V accessory outlets in the bed (if the battery is big enough) or it can run as a generator (110V outlet available only if the car is in READY so that the engine can come on to charge the HV battery as needed).

    The Germans will probably attack from this front (with BMW's 330e and 530e getting good reviews and so is the 2nd gen Panamera e-Hybrid)

    What do you think?
     
    #1 Tideland Prius, May 11, 2017
  2. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

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    I do feel like some of it is simply, the automakers don't want to figure out how to market it. I mean, look at the Highlander versus the Sienna.

    Sienna AWD: 18 city, 20 combined, 24 highway
    Highlander AWD: 19 city, 22 combined, 26 highway
    Highlander Hybrid AWD: 29 city, 28 combined, 27 highway

    You can't tell me that the Sienna wouldn't get a huge gain from non-plug-in hybridization. Sure, it'd mostly be in the city, but a lot of what family haulers do nowadays is shuttling kids around a suburb - to school and to after-school activities.

    Sure, it needs a lot of engine to meet the market's power expectations, but even with a 3.5 liter V6 (and the efficiency hit of the old P310 technology), the Highlander Hybrid is damn near 30 EPA mpg nowadays. Something along the lines of 27-28 city, 25 highway would be attainable in a Sienna Hybrid, with just dropping the Highlander Hybrid's powertrain in.

    Now, the advantage of a PHEV is, I'd argue, in regenerative braking - you can brake harder and still avoid using the friction brakes, because the bigger battery can take more power.

    However, you still need a decently big engine for efficient charge sustaining operation - note that the Pacifica Hybrid still uses the same size engine (although Atkinsonized) as its non-hybrid counterpart. The Volt uses a 1.5 liter 4-cylinder, making about 50 hp less than the Cruze's 1.4T, but not that incredibly far off. The CT6 uses a 2.0T, same as the base model CT6. The Germans tend to use the same 2.0Ts that they'd use in a base model, unless it's so big that the base model would have a 2.9-3.0 forced induction 6-cylinder instead. That's because once the charge is depleted, hard acceleration needs quite a bit of engine, and even moderate acceleration is best if it's within the optimum BSFC of the engine.

    Basically, sure, you can make a blended PHEV truck... but you've still gotta get the thing down the road with decent performance when the battery's dead, else you'll have the problems that the i3 REx has.
     
    #2 bhtooefr, May 11, 2017
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  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I'd say it was more about cost and price in the past. Earlier Highlander hybrids were pricey. I think many looking at them opting to just get the Lexus version. The fuel economy was good, but not good enough in MPG terms to be worth that extra cost alone to sway shoppers. Minivan buyers might be more frugal than SUV ones.

    Costs have dropped enough that the hybrid premium is an easier sell, and the market is moving past the point were the hybrid version was special in need of further differentiation. Hybrids are sold in the same trims as the ICE models, including the base one in some cases. The Prius is the only hold out.

    So a hybrid, w/o plug, minivan could work and sell. I don't think we'll see any right away as I expect Toyota and Honda to be slow to react to the Pacifica.

    Pick ups and larger SUVs are expected to be able to work in towing and hauling. Even if most buyers don't use them as such, it helps in marketing. To date, hybrid systems have been lacking on that front when compared to ICE siblings. The larger battery of a PHEV alone isn't going to help. That HSD/4 speed auto mutant in the new Lexus might have been designed for trucks, and there are plans for a parallel hybrid F150, so a hybrid truck that can do what the ICE one can may arrive soon.
     
    #3 Trollbait, May 16, 2017
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  4. Tideland Prius

    Tideland Prius Moderator of the North
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    lol. It'll be a hard sell in Canada given that the price difference between the HiHy and RXh is somewhere between $15,000 and $20,000.

    Even today in 2017...

    Highlander Hybrid XLE: $49,985
    Highlander Hybrid Limited: $55,990

    Freight/PDI for HiHy = $1,785

    RX450h: $70,300
    RX450h Executive Pkg: $76,150
    RX450h F Sport Series 3: $77,000
    RX450h Executive Plus Pkg: $78,750

    Freight/PDI for RX450h = $2,045


    So comparing a loaded HiHy Limited for $57,775 plus other fees and taxes (5-15%) and a base RX450h $72,345 plus other fees and taxes.... it's still a large jump in Canada. (there's currently a $4,000 incentve - $1,500 delivery credit and $2,500 cash credit if you pay cash or finance elsewhere on the RX450h which will reduce that difference.)
     
    #4 Tideland Prius, May 16, 2017
  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Back in 2006, the price difference between here the Highlanderh and RXh here might have been closer to what is seen in the Avalonh and ESh today.
     
    #5 Trollbait, May 17, 2017
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