Operation in "real" winter environments

David Beale · Aug 17, 2006

I posted this in another forum, and am putting it here as well as I'd like comments.

I was participating in a "show and shine" on the weekend and AMA (our AAA) were there with one of their Prius (2004 "B" package). I was explaining to the lady how it actually worked (and she was so grateful she gave me a Mr Clean car wash kit).

She said another AMA employee used it last winter, and it never warmed up the interior when the temp. was -30C. He was not impressed.

So that got me to thinking, would it be "a good thing" to insulate the engine block? Probably use rock wool with aluminum foil backing so there wouldn't be any fire issues. This would conserve engine heat, and make the block heater more effective as well.

I don't think it would cause the engine to overheat, as I haven't heard of anyone boiling the cooling system.

What I think it would do is increase the efficiency of the system. The engine shouldn't have to run as often to stay warm. It should also reduce engine compartment heating, which I understand may be a partial cause of an overtemp. warning several owners have reported.

Any comments? Anyone want to try it?

efusco · Aug 17, 2006

Efficiency is not going to be good when it's -30C. Somewhere there's a thread with pictures of a Prius in Japan where they did do exactly the type of thing you described and packed insulation all around the ICE.

I put a think insulation layer under the hood...can't say if it helped.

What you really need is a heated garage and an engine block heater. The heated garage probably is the first choice if available b/c it also keeps the HV battery warm.

Once the battery gets cold it tends to stay cold which is inefficient and forces the ICE to, thus, work harder.

I have not driven in temps anywhere near that cold, I did drive in the low teens (F) after allowing the car to cold soak for more than 2 days and it did take a while to get really warm in the cabin, the ICE ran hard, and the battery temp stayed very low...it was an almost 3 hour drive home for me and the battery temp never reached 50F despite the heat running the whole time.

So, I'm not sure how that info helps you. Many people in Canada, Minn. and other cold areas are perfectly happy with the cold weather performance, but I can see how some would not be as easily pleased if they're used to a V8 heating the cabin to a toasty 50C in 10 minutes flat. But keep a coat on, turn on the heat and forget about getting 50mpg and you'll be fine.

hyo silver · Aug 17, 2006

Thankfully, I have no idea what it's like to live in such temperatures. (Water freezes in the winter?)

However, I can suggest a block heater and a radiator cover as ways to mitigate the effects. Aside from a hat and gloves, of course.

TonyPSchaefer · Aug 17, 2006

Some people here in Chicagoland have blocked their grill to keep the cold air out in addition to adding an engine block heater and insulation.

onerpm · Aug 17, 2006

The Prius heater does fine in Minnesota. At least that's been my experience over the last two, and John1701 has much more experience than that, as well as data on his site. However, 30 below is a one-night in a decade thing here. I have seen posts from truly cold climes confirming your comment about the heater not handling those types of daily temps well, and that it was worse than their non-hybrid cars. I wonder whether the Prius was being compared to cars with 4-cylinder engines, though.

jayman · Aug 17, 2006

The first winter I had my Prius, we had many nights of -40. My condo has heated underground parking, and at work it's also heated. But the combination of blizzards and snow routing meant a commute where the car would cool off so much that about halfway through the commute, the engine ran all the time. The heat output also decreased

Parking at a mall for 2-4 hours and the ride back home was bone chilling to say the least. Trips out to my hobby farm were also very cold, with the windows icing up too.

I solved the problem last winter by making a winter front to completely cover the lower grille. One of our forum members - Frank Hudon - suggested 1/2 pipe foam insulation to cover the 2 slits above the license bracket. I did that too and transformed my Prius into a car that would quickly warm up, produce plenty of heat, and even at -30 C shutdown at red lights

Toyota should have researched cold weather use much better. Places like Winnipeg and Edmonton, Saskatoon, Regina, etc, can routinely expect -30 to -40 C in January. I "solved" my heater problem with my jerry-rigged winter front.

Though for what its worth, a co-worker with a 2005 VW Golf tdi really freezes in his car. He has to park outside at his apartment, and even plugged in he just about has certain body parts fall off on the drive to the office.

john1701a · Aug 17, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Aug 17 2006, 08:52 PM) [snapback]305016[/snapback]</div>

Toyota should have researched cold weather use much better. Places like Winnipeg and Edmonton, Saskatoon, Regina, etc, can routinely expect -30 to -40 C in January. I "solved" my heater problem with my jerry-rigged winter front.[/b]
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The problem is not getting more heat, it's how to deliver a limited-use feature that isn't jerry-rigged.

At some point, the extra insulation becomes a burden rather than a help. And if you wait too long to remove it, the vehicle could actually overheat. I'd be quite impressed with a factory option capable of handling that. Fortunately though, it doesn't get cold enough here (Minnesota). -25C is a rare occurence. And adding some insulation yourself isn't too demanding. And it is still less of a chore than dealing with a block-heater routinely.

cwerdna · Aug 18, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Aug 17 2006, 06:52 PM) [snapback]305016[/snapback]</div>

Toyota should have researched cold weather use much better. Places like Winnipeg and Edmonton, Saskatoon, Regina, etc, can routinely expect -30 to -40 C in January. I "solved" my heater problem with my jerry-rigged winter front.
[/b]
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(From someone living in a much warmer climate where it doesn't get much below 32 F in the winter for a low temp.)
I'm not sure it'd be a good use of Toyota's resources. Canada's population is only 11% of that of the US and consequently, Toyota sells a hell of a lot fewer vehicles in Canada than the US.

Last month, Toyota sold ~241K vehicles in the US (http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2006/08/01/016769.html) and ~11K of them were Priuses. By comparison, they sold 18K vehicles in Canada and a whopping 162 were Priuses (http://www.newswire.ca/en/releases/archive/August2006/01/c2689.html).

Design decisions and areas to focus on in for profit businesses are generally dictated by business cases or lack of.

Sorry guys...

BTW, -30 C is almost unfathomable to me. I've never been anywhere THAT cold. That's -86 F! Wow.

Tom_06 · Aug 18, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(cwerdna @ Aug 18 2006, 04:38 AM) [snapback]305210[/snapback]</div>

<snip> ...
BTW, -30 C is almost unfathomable to me. I've never been anywhere THAT cold. That's -86 F! Wow.
[/b]
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Nope. -40C = -40F. -30C is "only" -22F. Still very cold but hardly unfathomable to anyone who has lived in Canada or in one of the US states bordering Canada. I've seen -25F in southern Michigan.

- Tom

David Beale · Aug 18, 2006

Thanks for your comments so far folks. After posting this and thinking of our hot summer this year, I realized just what a temp. range we experience here - we've seen a day or two of -50C every once in a few winters, and this summer it got up to +42C. That's a 92 deg. range! Amazing. I'm not complaining about how the Prius handles it, it's quite an engineering challenge. Most cars have problems below -30C unless the owners take "steps".

Thinner oil for winter (or synthetic).
Block heater plugged in if parked outside (the car will reach ambient in a few hours when it's that cold). They are standard equipment here.
Make sure your gas tank is free of water! If you don't use ethanol fuel (I use the Mohawk/Husky 5% or 10% stuff), add "gasline antifreeze", which is isopropyl alcohol, once in a while.
Heated seats are nice, but a heated steering wheel is much more important. My rear end can take care of itself, but it's really hard to properly operate a vehicle with gloves on! Those switches are sooo small. Are you listening Toyota?

You can dress for a cold car all you like, but we tend to add a lot of humidity to the air we exhale, and that ices up the windows. Not good! I find it useful to be able to see where I'm going.

When you feel ice crystals forming in your nose when you breath, you know it's going to be fun!

You get into the car and sit -ON- the seat. It doesn't give - you are sitting on it higher than normal. I always hear my inner voice say "OH OH!". You all hear that, don't you?

cwerdna · Aug 18, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tom_06 @ Aug 18 2006, 03:53 AM) [snapback]305226[/snapback]</div>

Nope. -40C = -40F. -30C is "only" -22F. Still very cold but hardly unfathomable to anyone who has lived in Canada or in one of the US states bordering Canada. I've seen -25F in southern Michigan.
[/b]
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Whoops! I stand corrected. It looks like I discovered a bug in my old TI-85 calculator's conversion routines. I just tried 0 C which was correct: 32 F. -1 C resulted -33.8 F which is definitely not right.

jayman · Aug 18, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Aug 17 2006, 10:49 PM) [snapback]305101[/snapback]</div>

At some point, the extra insulation becomes a burden rather than a help. And if you wait too long to remove it, the vehicle could actually overheat. I'd be quite impressed with a factory option capable of handling that.
[/b]
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John

It's not that big a chore up here. Up until recently almost everybody here was used to block heaters and winter fronts. You'll only drive off once with the block heater still plugged in, and we've all done it. You could buy winter fronts with little flaps to open on warmer days.

I used a winter front on my 2000 GMC Sierra and have no problem using one on my Prius. Kind of glad the block heater is standard on Canadian Prius cars.

jay

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(David Beale @ Aug 18 2006, 11:14 AM) [snapback]305363[/snapback]</div>

Thinner oil for winter (or synthetic). My rear end can take care of itself, but it's really hard to properly operate a vehicle with gloves on! Those switches are sooo small. Are you listening Toyota?[/b]
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David

I ran Mobil 1 0W-30 the first winter, and Mobil 1 0W-20 the second winter. The 0W-20 gave better wear results than the 0W-30, so I'll keep using it. I purchased the 0W-30 in Minnesota, I've never found Mobil 1 0W-30 in Canada. Last time I bought 0W-20 it was at Canadian Tire.

Another option for 0W-30 is a heavy duty diesel oil like Esso XD-3 0W-30: it's dual rated SL and CI-4. I use that in my tractor and my 1984 Ford F-150, both at my hobby farm, with good results. It's about $4.30 a litre and you should be able to find an Esso / Imperial Oil bulk lube dealer there.

As far as rear ends, my nice person felt like it was going to break off the first winter. Guess I should eat more and put on more "insulation."

jay

Tideland Prius · Aug 19, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Aug 18 2006, 07:03 PM) [snapback]305688[/snapback]</div>

John

It's not that big a chore up here. Up until recently almost everybody here was used to block heaters and winter fronts. You'll only drive off once with the block heater still plugged in, and we've all done it. You could buy winter fronts with little flaps to open on warmer days.

I used a winter front on my 2000 GMC Sierra and have no problem using one on my Prius. Kind of glad the block heater is standard on Canadian Prius cars.

jay

[/b]
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Actually, it's only standard in the cold provinces like AB, SK, MB and ON maybe. It's not standard in BC that's for sure.

Bill Lumbergh · Aug 25, 2006

We had a relatively mild Alaska winter last year and I wasn't all that impressed with the Prius' ability to warm up, despite using a constantly-on block heater just before driving. I would leave it plugged in all night, otherwise it would never make any headway in actually heating the block.

It helped a ton when I started parking indoors in a heated garage, but the gas engine's ability to make heat is fairly poor, especially when balanced with my desire for good fuel economy in slow-moving traffic.

jayman · Sep 12, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Boxster...WRX...Prius? @ Aug 25 2006, 03:40 PM) [snapback]309468[/snapback]</div>

It helped a ton when I started parking indoors in a heated garage, but the gas engine's ability to make heat is fairly poor, especially when balanced with my desire for good fuel economy in slow-moving traffic.
[/b]
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You're a perfect candidate for a winter front. Mine made a big difference on the highway - as I expected - but also a big difference in motionless city traffic jams. That was unexpected.

JayGoldstein · Sep 12, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jayman @ Aug 17 2006, 08:52 PM) [snapback]305016[/snapback]</div>

I solved the problem last winter by making a winter front to completely cover the lower grille. One of our forum members - Frank Hudon - suggested 1/2 pipe foam insulation to cover the 2 slits above the license bracket. I did that too and transformed my Prius into a car that would quickly warm up, produce plenty of heat, and even at -30 C shutdown at red lights[/b]
Click to expand...

Any photos of your winter mods?

My Prius is parked in a carport (unheated, obviously). I've got an interior warmer that I've used in my previous vehicles to take the chill off on cold mornings. I'm going to talk to my dealer's service department about routing a cord through the firewall so I can use the warmer in the Prius.

jayman · Sep 12, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JayGoldstein @ Sep 12 2006, 03:28 PM) [snapback]318552[/snapback]</div>

Any photos of your winter mods?
[/b]
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Or I can just pop over and show it to you!

I've apparently used up all my "global" space as I'm not allowed to attach any more pictures. I took a few last fall at the hobby farm and unless you're right up to the car, it blends right in.

Another photo option is if I can email to your Shaw or MTS account.

nerfer · Sep 12, 2006

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Aug 17 2006, 10:49 PM) [snapback]305101[/snapback]</div>

Fortunately though, it doesn't get cold enough here (Minnesota). -25C is a rare occurence. And adding some insulation yourself isn't too demanding. And it is still less of a chore than dealing with a block-heater routinely.
[/b]
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You should clarify that by meaning the Twin Cities, which is kinda southern Minnesota. But -25'C is only -13'F, you should hit that occasionally in the winter. I grew up 180 miles north of there on a farm somewhat near International Falls (altho I'm now in the Chicago area unfortunately). Growing up, we'd expect -40 (C or F) a few times every winter. When the gas prices rose in the 80's we got a diesel Ford Escort, which worked pretty well, but we kept it in the garage at home, and when Mom took it to work she'd have to go outside a couple times during the day to turn it on and warm it up in the really cold weather. The worst was the pickup with the vinyl seats. That felt like frozen plywood when it was below zero, and the shocks/tires don't absorb much of the bumps when they're that cold too.

One thing though. for my Canadian friends - what's a winter front? Is it a cover added in front of the radiator to block the wind? I've seen that a hundred times, (and used them a couple times) but never heard them called that. Maybe it's a Canadian thing, or am I just that oblivious on that?

David Beale · Sep 12, 2006

A winter front - imagine a padded "car bra" that covers all openings on the front of the car. There are snaps and little flaps (like long underwear ) you can fasten open when there's a warm spell. The really deluxe ones are left on year long. They have large panels that detach and are replaced with bug netting.

These things are not cheap. Hence Jay's manufacture of his own. I may have met him (amatuer astronomy), and even if not, he's a farmer by nature appearantly, and as such a man who wouldn't spend money on things he can do himself (usually better).

Locust43 · Sep 13, 2006

I thought the Prius had "instant" heat with electric heat strips? So you have to wait for the car to "Warm Up"?

Operation in "real" winter environments

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Operation in "real" winter environments

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