NY Times: Lexus RX 400h is pointless

It's very disappointing that they couldn't get better economy even at this level of performance.

 

There are some people who manage to get 35 mpg in their Prius.
Some of these people let the car sit in the driveway for 10 minutes and then mash the accelerator to their destination 2 miles down the road. They then go screaming to everyone at the top of their lungs what a piece of crap the car is and that a Corolla gets better mileage.
Give me a break.

 

From the Edmunds long-term test of the 2006 RX400h:

Current Odometer: 1,750
Best Fuel Economy: 31 mpg
Worst Fuel Economy: 24 mpg
Average Fuel Economy (over the life of the vehicle): 27.5 mpg

That's impressively close to the estimated 29mpg (31hwy/27city). I'd be happy if I was only coming up 5% short of hitting 55mpg in my Prius on every tank.

I read another article where the driver only managed 22mpg in the RX400h (24mpg when driving with a light foot), but the writer also noted the RX330 only got 16mpg under the same conditions.

 

These types of poorly written and poorly researched articles are pointless...

The Edmunds data sighted above should have been in this article. Info from Green Hybrid should have been in this article. Green Hybrid currently has info on 7 Hylander Hybrids and 11 400H's. Both groups are averaging 25 mpg. This seems like about the same 20 to 25% mpg improvement you get with a Prius vs. a Corolla or a Civic hybrid vs. a Civic. So whats the problem?

Also consider this. If you drive 15,000 miles a year and improve your mileage from 20 to 25 mpg (buy a 400H instead of an RX330 for instance), you will save 150 gals of gas a year. If you drive 15,000 miles a year and improve your milage from 40 to 50 mpg (buy a Prius vs. a Corolla for instance) you will save 75 gals a year.

The authors gripe was the 400H didn't save fuel like a Prius. I would argue that it saves more fuel than a Prius if you assume the drivers of both cars would have chosen a similar non-hybrid to drive instead. It is just a poor article.

 

Any sane person : NY Times is pointless

I like to read a newspaper that has news on its front page - not editorials.

 

Since when does a Corolla get 40 MPG? The EPA estimate is 30/38, so a Corolla average of 34 should have been compared to a Prius average of 55. That results in an improvement of 62%, not 25% as you say.

And that is why the author laments the RX400H, and I don't blame him.

 

You are using EPA numbers which aren't necessarily representative of reality. I'm (roughly) trying to use real world numbers. I owned a Honda Civic and got 38 mpg which is about what the EPA highway milage rating was. I own a Prius and I get 51 mpg which is about what the EPA highway milage is. The improvement in this case is a little better than the 25% I used in my example, but similar. I don't know what I would get if I owned a Corolla, but I suspect it would be about 38. I don't know what a non-hybrid Highlander gets, but I suspect it is about 18-20. So I believe that in the real world, hybrids are delivering about a 25% improvement. And if that improvement occurs in the SUV arena we are going to save a lot more gas than if it occurs in the subcompact arena. (unless people trade SUV's for subcompacts).

 

Pointless?

No, there really is a point to the first Toyota & Lexus hybrids.

The SULEV emission rating is an undeniable benefit, unquestionably cleaner than the traditional version.

The MPG improvement is obviously less than from a hybrid configuration like that in Prius; nonetheless, there still is one.

But they weren't really the point. Those of us that have been dealing with the anti-hybrid crowd for years know the reality of the situation. We are well aware of how some have attempted to thwart the success by insisting that a fast & powerful hybrid was impossible, that the system couldn't support a burden that hefty. These particular hybrids have undeniably squashed those attempts to intentionally create a misconception. Now, they can't say squat.

That opens up the door for mass-acceptance. In fact, it draws so much attention that some may buy a hybrid sooner than they otherwise would have... simply because their attention was captured sooner. See the point?

 

I agree completely with John. I thought the 400h was supposed to be about performance and not economy?

Toyota, by now having shown that hybrids -- even in their EARLIEST incarnations -- can deliver economy & now they can also deliver performance without a horrible hit on economy, this clearly opens the door for mass acceptance.

I thought the 400h was supposed to be like getting a powerful V8 while giving BETTER MPG than a V6.

So the fact that the 400h only gets slightly better MPG than a V6 330, while getting V8 power, is phenomenal.

Try comparing the 440h to the MPG of the V8 GX. It gets 15 to 19. Or the V8 LX that gets 13 to 17.

To repeat what John said.....
"That opens up the door for mass-acceptance. In fact, it draws so much attention that some may buy a hybrid sooner than they otherwise would have... simply because their attention was captured sooner. See the point?"

I see it.

 

I kinda think they're right.

Now before you all jump down my throat, just hear me out a little bit.

Wouldn't it have been better for Toyota to release an HSD version of the 4cylinder drivetrain, one that perhaps cracks the 30mpg barrier and is a bit more competitive with the Escape Hybrid, and yet would offer the same performance as the regular V6?

Then they could put the emphasis on the hybrid platform and use it to subtly replace the V6.

As it is, I just don't see the point... the V6, from what I've read, was plenty strong enough as it was.

 

article is nothing but crap. even the author felt guilty when reporting his results

drove the gas only Lexus over essentially the same route?? ok... so why bother to compare. was the same route too difficult for you. different days and different traffic situations means that the results are nothing but crap.

 

In the last quarter, we had a massive increase in sales of gas guzzling truck based vehicles. This increase was way more than passenger vehicles and the total sales were way more than passenger vehicles. Yup, we're sure making progress with these hybrids, aren't we? As we celebrate the fact that the Lexus is better than nothing, we go over the cliff of oil consumption and global warming. In any event, the millions of us living in the real world are not going to buying a Lexus in any event.

Meanwhile, the Suburbans, the Expeditions, and the Excursions rule.

As for the SULEV, AT-PZEV issue, that's really going to help us while the earth is frying.

Acceptance of hybrid technology isn't good enough. What we need is acceptance of high gas mileage vehicles. Hybrid technology will not get us out of this mess.

The market is not going to solve this problem. Until high mileage is enforced, we will continue to suck up the world's oil.

Sign me disgusted with Toyota.

 

I have the ultimate solution as transportation to prevent global warming, but you would not like it..... :mrgreen:

Transportation Solution

 

[
I have the ultimate solution as transportation to prevent global warming, but you would not like it..... :mrgreen:


Bicycling is part of the solution, and I have always liked it since I spent much of my working career riding my bike to work. What's not to like. Too bad the Chinese are abandoning the bike in favor of the auto. Big, big mistake.

 

Actually you have it backwards. High mileage vehicles will not get us out of the global warming mess. Only SULEV and PZEV will.

Of course, high mileage vehicles will help with the running out of oil problem, but not the frying problem, unless of course by high mileage, you mean 500 MPG.

But I think you are missing John's point. Toyota has plans to make a hybrid version of everything they make. Currently, they sell a million Camrys a year and maybe about 150,000 hybrids. If Toyota wants to sell a few million hybrids, they have to prove to the world that the hybrid can do it all. Economy AND performance.

Personally, I'm impressed with Toyota's marketing of the hybrid/HSD. They seem to realize they need to approach the American market from two directions.

As for that market for power. It's not Toyota's fault that we want low MPG vehicles. However, I do think there is a vacuum of leadership.

After the first energy crisis, we were asked to drive slower and lower our thermostats in winter and raise our air conditioning in summer, etc, etc. And for a five year period, we cut back on oil use for the first and last time in our history. We pulled together and worked together as a nation and succeeded in lowering substantially our need for imported oil.

After 9/11, we were told to go shopping.

When our industry, and out leadership, tells us that we can buy as big as we want with zero consequences, what can you expect. This ain't Toyota's fault.

 

Enough?

We've encountered extreme resistance to change over the past 5 years, the most intense actually from certain automakers rather than consumers. And some politicians figure change isn't even necessary, that we can just drill our way out of the problem instead.

How could more be accomplished?

It will still take time for people to finally figure out what MPG their current vehicle actually delivers, since most only have a vague idea right now. So even if there was a sudden jump to high-mileage vehicles, how would they know that's what they were?

And what about the dirty solutions? If we simply abandoned our efforts to reduce smog and breath-related health problems, we could easily adopt diesel. But why would anyone want to make a tradeoff like that?

The less approach doesn't make any sense either. It's easy though. All automakers have to do is reduce the size of the vehicle, replace metal with plastic, and use a really small engine.

I simply don't see how more could be realistic.

 

John

I'm not saying PZEV, etc, doesn't matter. We should actually insist on the highest anti pollution standards. I'm just saying it isn't enough. It does nothing to battle CO2.

Yes, hybrids are better than conventional technology. It will help. But simply improving the situation means very little when people are buying more big vehicles than ever and China is devoting their future to an automobile based economy.

We have higher gas prices than ever, and yet people are buying more gas guzzlers than ever. For the vast majority of people, short term price is the bottom line. Long term gas savings mean nothing and the planet means nothing.

Higher standards need to be enforced and gas has to go to $10 per gallon. Hybrids will mitiigate the problem, but the bottom line average gas mileage is being minimally effected, if at all.

And remember what we did with all the efficiency advantages of the last 20 years. We increased performance. And, in part, I fear that is what we are doing now. Look at the Accord and look at the Lexus.