1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Featured New Jersey has it right

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Marine Ray, Nov 13, 2019.

  1. Marine Ray

    Marine Ray Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2017
    1,139
    942
    0
    Location:
    Sparks, NV
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Plug-in Advanced
    For our New Jersey folks, state lawmakers looking how to get funds from growing number of EVs to pay for roads, etc because of dip in gas tax. In my opinion, fortunate that quoted lawmaker is looking at miles driven.
    How do you tax a car that doesn't use gas? NJ may seek ideas
     
  2. noonm

    noonm Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2019
    575
    595
    0
    Location:
    NJ
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    I hope your being sarcastic. NJ 2019 YTD EV sales were a massive 1.55% of new vehicles.

    No state should put an extra tax, fee or other penalty on a HEV, PHEV or BEV until they make up more than a minuscule amount of sales or cars on the road. If they need more infrastructure revenue, then raise the gas tax.
     
  3. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2016
    6,404
    6,062
    0
    Location:
    Columbia, SC
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    I read the title and laughed so hard that I almost choked. I don't think New Jersey (as a government/state) has done much of anything right in 4 decades or so....that's just going by my experience during the 20+ years I lived there.....maybe things have changed in the 21 years since then, but I doubt it..

    ..but you are correct in that they at least are looking at hybrids reasonably for the time being...

    One thing about NJ is they toll the heLL out of drivers on highways. Seems to me that there's probably a higher percentage of hybrid owners who have long commutes...probably putting more $$ into the coffers through tolls, not necessarily via gas tax
     
    #3 TMR-JWAP, Nov 13, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2019
    douglasjre, chelvis and noonm like this.
  4. noonm

    noonm Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2019
    575
    595
    0
    Location:
    NJ
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    Good point!

    Though, they do give a 10% offpeak discount to eligible hybrids/EVs (of which the Prime is one of them).

    However, the point stands, there is no need to treat HEVs/PHEVs/BEVs different from any other vehicles. If you need more revenue, raise the gas tax, increase the tolls, etc.
     
  5. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,450
    11,762
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Looking into what would be the best way to tax cars for road use in the future is better to do now than wait until the lack of gas revenue causes a funding crisis. It isn't about taxing EVs now.

    "O’Malley said “the tipping point” at which a Transportation Trust Fund revenue plan that specifically includes electric cars is needed is close to 10% of the state’s vehicle fleet and at least five years away."
     
  6. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2016
    11,518
    14,128
    0
    Location:
    Tampa, FL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    A government official with a brain???!!!?? Is that even legal?
     
  7. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,557
    10,324
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    No, but the bureaucracy takes a while to weed them out.
     
    jerrymildred and Trollbait like this.
  8. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2009
    3,028
    2,369
    0
    Location:
    Silicon Valley
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius Plug-in
    Model:
    Plug-in Base
    Nobody knows, because there is no legal precedent for something that's never happened before.

    Mike
     
    jerrymildred likes this.
  9. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2011
    7,028
    3,241
    1
    Location:
    NJ
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
  10. noonm

    noonm Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2019
    575
    595
    0
    Location:
    NJ
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    So they will tax electric vehicles while at the same time exempting them from sales tax. Only in Jersey....

    Edit:
    This article has an actually good suggestion on how to fund road construction: Charge vehicle registration fees by vehicle weight. That is a factor directly tied to road damage.

    Of course, that would make America's urban assault vehicles much less affordable, so I'm not holding out hope. However, its a good counter-argument to these EV fees.
     
    #10 noonm, Nov 16, 2019
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2019
    John321 likes this.
  11. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2016
    11,518
    14,128
    0
    Location:
    Tampa, FL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Hmmm. Seems to me like if they followed the logic to its end, they would completely drop gas taxes and just impose a flat tax on all cars and trucks. Then everyone could get a good taste of injustice and maybe wake up. Well, at least those who only drive to the grocery store. Those who have to drive a lot might like it.
     
  12. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2011
    7,028
    3,241
    1
    Location:
    NJ
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    The state giveth, the state taketh away.
     
  13. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,450
    11,762
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    The article is talking about the difference between passenger cars and commercial trucks. If a weight based fee was tied to road damage, the difference between an i3 and a full size SUV would be measured in cents. Then most BEV cars weight as much as ICE SUVs.
     
    fuzzy1 likes this.
  14. Marine Ray

    Marine Ray Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2017
    1,139
    942
    0
    Location:
    Sparks, NV
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Plug-in Advanced
    Thanks for this link. Listened to the NJ state legislature discussion on creating a commission to find a way forward (not debating electric vehicle tax).

    Glad this commission looks to be moving forward and appears to have equal representation. In the end there's no "free lunch".

    In the end I'm sure they'll be some "hybrid" solution :)
     
  15. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,557
    10,324
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    "It turns out that passenger cars actually do almost no damage to the roads. According to a GAO study, an 80,000lb 18-wheeler does 9,600 times more damage to roads than a 4,000lb passenger vehicle."

    Yes, compared to a 4000 lb car, the road damage cost of a 6000 lb SUV is a much larger handful of peanuts. But it is still just a handful of peanuts, less than a single fuel refill. If the SUV owners can afford the extra fuel cost year-round, then they likely won't even notice a weight tax difference.
     
    Trollbait, jerrymildred and John321 like this.
  16. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    11,341
    3,596
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    OP, BEV advocates feel miles-driven gas tax is not a good solution.
     
  17. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,450
    11,762
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Which ones are those?
     
  18. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    11,341
    3,596
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Are you a miles-driven tax fan TB?
    BEV advocates in favor miles-driven tax can self-nominate below.
     
  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    22,450
    11,762
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    I am miles driven tax for all cars.

    I think the numbers of plug ins on the road at this time doesn't warrant taxing them right now, and current legislation is mostly about scapegoating.
     
    Rmay635703 and jerrymildred like this.
  20. noonm

    noonm Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 5, 2019
    575
    595
    0
    Location:
    NJ
    Vehicle:
    2018 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    I have yet to hear a good answer to "but how do you enforce it?" for miles-driven taxes. Proposed solutions are typically:
    - Intrusive (let's just put this little black box in your car that tells us your miles driven!)
    - Annoying (monthly or annual odometer checks at your local DMV!)
    - Allows for out-of-state free riding (sorry, I'm registered in the next state over so I don't have to pay your tax!)

    The truth is that a combination of weight-based annual registration fees, gas taxes and tolling is a far better solution to the above than miles-driven taxes. Before even considering a miles-driven tax, special PHEV/BEV tax, etc, states should ask themselves:
    • Are our gas taxes below the national average? Raise them!
    • Do our registration fees consider vehicle weight? Prorate them on weight!
    • Are there major areas or roads without tolls? Toll those roads!
    Once a state has exhausted those options, then we can talk about a miles-driven tax.
     
    bwilson4web and bisco like this.