Motor Trend: Okay, so Volt is not an EV. It's a Hybrid. But we think it's a superior hybrid to HSD.

Re: Motor Trend: Okay, so Volt is not an EV. It's a Hybrid. But we think it's a superior hybrid to H

Um, no one ever claimed or expected 30 to 40 ev only miles from the HSD! And I would hope it's better for $20k more! So is the engine better too, even with lousy emissions and mileage? Is it a better car for five passengers?

 

Re: Motor Trend: Okay, so Volt is not an EV. It's a Hybrid. But we think it's a superior hybrid to H

Compared to the Prius? Which one?
Ah, I know the one that has been selling for 13 years and doesn't even have to be plugged to give a 150mile trip with the same amount of gas as the Volt!
Please, Motor Trend, Volt should be compared to itself: a bad project.

 

Re: Motor Trend: Okay, so Volt is not an EV. It's a Hybrid. But we think it's a superior hybrid to H

Two possible futures:

In ten years the 2021 Volt is the same as the 2011, except the chrome is in different places. In this future, the Volt is a failure.

In ten years the thrird Generation 2021 Volt is one of a number of hybrid GM vehicles and GM is considering making it a Brand. Success!

 

Re: Motor Trend: Okay, so Volt is not an EV. It's a Hybrid. But we think it's a superior hybrid to H

Why don't GM join-venture with Toyota to licence the Prius' Atkinson ICE to replace the sucky one in the Volt? And of course Toyota will have access to GM's alternate planetary gear arrangements. They did that with the Matrix and the Pontiac Vibe! Both had the Corolla ICE.

 

Re: Motor Trend: Okay, so Volt is not an EV. It's a Hybrid. But we think it's a superior hybrid to H

Press releases do so much to make the reporter's life easier. Makes reporters less accurate, but hey, it pays the bills.

 

Re: Motor Trend: Okay, so Volt is not an EV. It's a Hybrid. But we think it's a superior hybrid to H

101 MPH is totally pointless for real-world driving, well above the legal limit. But that's what to expect from a "performance" magazine.

127 MPG makes you wonder what those that remember the 230 MPG will now think. It's also a nice match for those who have an aftermarket plug in their Prius.

70 MPH is a misconception that I bet will live on for quite some time. The actual direct-drive speed can be all the way down to 30 MPH. But most publications continue to focus on the first speed ever mentioned rather than the detail which followed later.

And what about price? That obviously isn't in the criteria for "superior" . The hefty premium with no chance of an affordable option due to the CS-mode efficiency being so low makes it "uncompetitive".

Needless to say, GM has designed a nice vehicle that simply isn't a viable choice for middle-market consumers.
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Re: Motor Trend: Okay, so Volt is not an EV. It's a Hybrid. But we think it's a superior hybrid to H

If it was for the ICE only...
And of course Toyota would never want to use GM's "alternate planetary gear arrangements", just because they have eliminated clutches for good on their PERFECT HSD!
No way. GM can do better, they only have to be aware of their own flaws.
4 years spent over this piece of non-sense...is a joke.

 

Re: Motor Trend: Okay, so Volt is not an EV. It's a Hybrid. But we think it's a superior hybrid to H

Here's another review from an engineering pub:

Vehicle Electrification - November 4, 2010

on page 14 are some extensive stats including their 51mpg C/S mode and they got 45miles on battery. This is with 4 adults on onboard. There's no way I'd ask 3 adults to ride in the back of my prius so I consider it a 4 seater too. IMO

Everyday folks are picking up their test models with no strings attached with in the next few days. We should some see real world feedback very, very soon.

 

Re: Motor Trend: Okay, so Volt is not an EV. It's a Hybrid. But we think it's a superior hybrid to H

Better look again. Close inspection of the detail shows the 51 MPG came from the 150-mile loop test they performed, which included 44.5 miles of EV driving.

150 miles / 51 MPG overall = 2.94 gallons

(150 miles - 44.5 miles EV) / 2.94 gallons = 35.9 MPG for CS-mode
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Re: Motor Trend: Okay, so Volt is not an EV. It's a Hybrid. But we think it's a superior hybrid to H

Agreed, they should have labeled it that way too. That is one of the lower combined figures I've seen as most to date have been in the 70's.

Like I said, real folks are getting their 3 month no-strings-attached test units as we speak. Let's put the torches away and at least wait to burn the witch till then. K?

 

Re: Motor Trend: Okay, so Volt is not an EV. It's a Hybrid. But we think it's a superior hybrid to H

I got my copy last night and read all of the Volt bits. While the 127 mpg claim is in one of the headlines the methodology they used to get it was burred in one of the articles on the car. Their methodology to get the number is a bit tainted - they simply took miles driven over an extended time period and divided it my gallons used - nothing was taken into account for the nightly charging. They did the same thing with the plug-in Prius and then compared the mpg's straight up - a touch misleading.

Perhaps the Volt's set-up (the planetary gears) is better than the Prius in theory - it should be since GM has had tons of time to build on what Toyota did - they also needed to deal it IT - staying away from Toyota's patents and coming up with something unique that they could protect. The HSD has been battle tested and proven itself to be both efficient and highly reliable. To me the huge advantage that Toyota's HSD has is the reliability - until there are a good number of Volts on the road with high miles you just can't tell.

 

Re: Motor Trend: Okay, so Volt is not an EV. It's a Hybrid. But we think it's a superior hybrid to H

I hope the Volt is a success. The two biggest draw backs to the Volt are the price and potentially reliability.

Not sure what can be done about price; one can only hope it drops. But this will be it's single biggest hurdle.

Yes, their planetary system allows something HSD does not, but with this flexibility comes clutches and additional complexity. Only time will tell how this will impact overall reliability.

These are exciting times. It will be interesting to see how Toyota will respond when it rolls out its plug-in. Even for those that don't like the Volt, one has to conject that it breeds competition which is good for us poor consumers...

 

Re: Motor Trend: Okay, so Volt is not an EV. It's a Hybrid. But we think it's a superior hybrid to H

The way Volt uses the planetary gearset dates back to 1970's, in the original TRW patent. It was too restrictive to the ICE so Toyota (and Ford) made advancements by reversing the input and output. In HSD, the planet gear is the input (ICE) and the ring gear is the output (wheels). This setup gives a lot of flexibility so the ICE can remain in the most efficient state.

Volt's transaxle is a simplified 2-mode hybrid. Three clutches gives more flexibility but they also adds complexity. If Toyota adds a clutch between the ring gear and the wheels+MG2, it will do everything the Volt can do. MG2 will power the wheels in full EV mode without over-spinning MG1 since it is disconnected from the PSD.

Is the Volt setup superior? I think the result (CS mode MPG) speaks very loud.

 

Re: Motor Trend: Okay, so Volt is not an EV. It's a Hybrid. But we think it's a superior hybrid to H

Oh Boy, competition. I bet Toyota is really shaking in their boots....

Keith

 

Re: Motor Trend: Okay, so Volt is not an EV. It's a Hybrid. But we think it's a superior hybrid to H

Volt is so advanced... it doesnt meet AT-PZEV standards!


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Re: Motor Trend: Okay, so Volt is not an EV. It's a Hybrid. But we think it's a superior hybrid to H

As long as they gave each car the same treatment, same miles per day and route, their methodology isn't tainted or misleading. It isn't the most exact testing, but it's a magazine. I wouldn't hold them up to the same standard as I would for the EPA.

How to test a plug-in hybrid is an ongoing debate. It's why we don't have EPA numbers for the Volt yet. Too short a test and a car may not use any fuel. If on a depleted battery, the test is biased against cars with longer EV ranges. It isn't even realistic. The vast majority of people go to work, and then come home the same day. Those people willing to try a PHEV will be plugging it in every night.

The Prius will be the champ at fuel economy. However, in day to day use, the Volt will use less gasoline than it. Yes, there many variables involved, and cases can be picked to give either a better image. That's why it's up to the consumer to decide which is best for them.

The price is a sticking point. However, the projected lease option on the official site is $350/month, for 3yrs, with $2500 due at signing. I don't know exactly how that compares to leases, but it does make the Volt possible for more people. While generally not the best course, leasing it may not be a bad idea. It is a new model with new technology. If problems develop, a person isn't stuck with it. Then again, the person may have misjudged the vehicle needs, and decide the Prius is a better option, or upgrade to a second gen Volt, or even realize their fears about getting stranded with EV are unfounded.

A lease does raise the spectre of the EV1 though.

 

Re: Motor Trend: Okay, so Volt is not an EV. It's a Hybrid. But we think it's a superior hybrid to H

Over a ~150ish mile drive ?

Lyle over at gm-volt published his first drive this morning of combined CD and CS driving over about 25 miles. CS was 38 mpg.

I still do not understand why the results are so poor, even after taking the Volt's high weight in account. Crappy ICE ? Lousy control logic or engine mapping ? High conversion losses ? Everything together ? Time will tell.

The blog world is going to light up when CR publishes its fuel economy "city" tests. I anticipate 30 mpg for the Volt in CS mode.

 

Re: Motor Trend: Okay, so Volt is not an EV. It's a Hybrid. But we think it's a superior hybrid to H

Which Prius? There's the no-plug model, the planned 2 EV sub-pack model, and there's the potential for higher EV capacity as well.

Volt is one-size-fits-all. It's neither affordable, offered without a plug, nor expected to be available at the same volume as Prius for a very long time.

Some of us are quite concerned about how much improvement can be delivered prior to the tax-credit expiring. It's the big picture, realistic production replacement. We'd like GM to offer a competitive, profitable vehicle that achieves the emission & efficiency goals which middle-market will be able to purchase rather than traditional vehicles.

Also, don't forget about adaptability of the technology... minivan, truck, coupe, sedan, wagon. If it's not viable for a size or type, what will be produced instead?
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Re: Motor Trend: Okay, so Volt is not an EV. It's a Hybrid. But we think it's a superior hybrid to H

As a non-Prius owner my initial thoughts concerning The Volt vs. Prius scenario? It very well might be that The Volt is a "superior" Hybrid to The Prius. But initial cost and low and limited availability mean that The Volt is more like a carefully controlled consumer campaign by GM at this point...than a realistically available car for the masses.

Competiton in the form of The Volt and The Leaf and others is beginning to appear on the horizon, and make no mistake I suspect some of it will become formidable. But initially? GM is being so conservative and seems so nervous about the VOLT roll-out, and how it is marketed and perceived that I think we are years away from the VOLT actually becoming direct competiton to The Prius.

Until GM markets the VOLT at a consumer cost and availabilty level that allows it to be a viable choice as an automobile for a recognizable majority of people...then even though it's tangible reality is manifesting, I still see it as more a marketing tool than an actual supported product.

GM is being so conservative and careful I think a lot of GM people are afraid of their own product. Toyota embraces. promotes and is expanding into an entire line of Hybrids....meanwhile GM inches towards limited release of The Volt. Advantage Toyota.