MBTE in California

As far as I know the ban never went into effect. It kept getting postponed year by year.

 

If you mean MTBE, this is another example of a chemical rushed into widespread use before the health consequences were understood. You know, like leaded gasoline or MMT up here.

Then once that chemical is "accepted" it's d*** hard to get rid of it. Perhaps a vigorous petition campaign is in order??

 

Kidtwist,

If you want to do some reading on the topic, search for Methanex v. United States

While you're at it you can check out Ethyl v. Canada (the outcome of that case will give you an idea of how the California situation will turn out).

 

"Took a quick look at it. It's really appalling."

Yes, it sure is. In a nutshell NAFTA holds a jurisdiction liable for losses incurred by bans (even if they are for health/safety reasons). Canada banned MMT back in the '90's, and the Ethyl Corp. (US company) sued under the provisions of NAFTA. Canada settled with Ethyl for approx $20 million Canadian (so of course those were taxpayer dollars), and MMT is still in Canadian gasoline.

California banned MTBE, and Methanex (a Canadian company) envoked the same NAFTA provisions, and the outcome (so far) is that MTBE is still in the gas.

"I know California has banned MMT. I presume Ethyl is an American company and can't sue a US state under NAFTA."

Correct, it is not "trade", therefore no NAFTA.

 

MMT is only dangerous in a widespread fashion if you had open pools of it lying around for people to walk by day by day. You all have got to do more studying of MMT before implying that there's a real health threat on a mass scale. There is not. MMT is not banned in California, as the company I work for does business regularly in California to ship MMT between CA and Japan/China and Asia.

Ethyl Corp, now Afton Chemical has long been the sole supplier of MMT worldwide, that's about to change in a big way, as Afton Chemical will no longer be the only supplier. MMT is in more products than you think, not just strictly for gasoline. Canada lost the case against Ethyl because it in fact could not support it's widespread health issue claims. I'm all for a cleaner environment as most here are...but the fact is, and it is scientific fact, not just my view.....MMT is responsible for helping remove lead from gasolines all over the world. It's doing more good than harm.

Dave.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hybrid_Dave\";p=\"102985)</div>

No, Canada lost the case against the powerful Ethyl Corp due to the fact Ethyl Corp turned the case from a health issue to a NAFTA issue and Canada was threatened with NAFTA sanctions.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Hybrid_Dave\";p=\"102985)</div>

Wasn't it Ethyl Corp that put lead in gasoline to begin with? Therefore I'm not very trusting of their "expert" opinion.

The many "facts" you quoted are completely contradictory to the position paper put out by the Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers Association:

http://www.cvma.ca/eng/publications/FinalMMTReport.pdf

which concluded that LEV cars run on gasoline containing typical Canadian levels of MMT, compared to the test gasoline meeting California specifications, put out a lot more emissions. Also, there was the issue of premature O2 sensor degredation.

In Europe the ACEA has examined the issue of MMT in gasoline and concluded, in the draft for the WWFC (World Wide Fuel Charter) that MMT should not be used.

Here in Canada, O2 sensors are usually only covered for 2 years or 40,000km.

If MMT is such great stuff, why did my 2000 GMC Sierra have a specific warning in the owner manual about the use of MMT, as does my 2004 Prius?

 

Jayman, I can appreciate your views being as you live in Canada...I don't support Ethyl/Afton Chemical anymore than the next Canadian neighbor of mine does. The company I work for has and will continue to take away much of Ethyl's profits from their MMT business as well as everything else they've got their dirty little fingers in. A lot of information I have about Ethyl I cannot give out because it would be illegal for me to do so. A lot of information I can give out about MMT, it's licensing, reactor information, and usefullness as an additive other than what you've read I cannot give out for the same reasons. I work with about 25 industry experts in the petroleum additives business who have a wealth of information (one of them is my father who was an Ethyl marketing manager for 20 years, and was forcibly retired because he would rather have told the Swedish EPA about Ethyl's incomplete reports than continue to be dishonest to make Ethyl a buck).

The "facts" which you imply are not facts, only skim the surface of what you can dig into as far as MMT. Trust me, there's a lot of information that would clear some things up for you that unless you are in the industry or associted with it, you will never see. Liability reasons on behalf of the auto maker are the reasons your 2000 Silverado and Prius advise against the use of MMT in your automobile, there's about 40 feet worth of paperwork that would tell you the complete story as to why they advise against it, most of which has to do with the fact that not everyone who would own a Silverado or Prius are going to be R&D chemists, and Chevy and Toyota won't be responsible for you adding a fraction of an eyedropper's worth of MMT straight to your tank of fuel and fuel systems.

 

One more thing, just for giggles....Jayman, you don't support the use of MMT to increase octane in unleaded gasoline because of it's environmental issues: but, you support GM by buying a 2000 Silverado? You do realize that it was GM and DuPont who built Ethyl Corp to the company it is today? Together with Standard Oil of New Jersey who marketed leaded gasoline as a so-called "gift from God". Tetra Ethyl Lead is the reason Ethyl was formed, and although it is in fact banned from use in "on highway" travel, it continues to be used in NASCAR engines, as well as commercial aircraft. You do fly don't you? It just seems to me that someone so opposed to these practices would in fact not support commercial air travel, or the companies that had anything to do with the introduction of TEL. It's like a vegan who wears leather shoes and belts.

Why buy GM when you know they supported such inventions that are responsible for much of the pollution in our environment....I say either be 100% supportive of the cause, or nothing at all. But that's just an opinion. Just stating my position on it. Yes, Ethyl was formed out of the creation of Leaded Gasoline, so your statement about Ethyl being "the ones who came out with leaded gasoline" is not entirely accurate. Whether right or wrong, and I do belieive it to be wrong on Ethyl's part, they introduced MMT to combat the effects of low octane unleaded gasoline on engine knock and emissions....it has had some adverse effects, but then again, so has the internal combustion engine, which you in turn support.

 

First of all, the report I cited was approved by the Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers’ Association, and by the Association of International Automobile Manufacturers of Canada.

The report examined primarily the effect on HC, CO, and NOx emissions, and the reliability effect on O2 and catalytic converters. They didn't bother to examine the issue of airborne manganese emissions, which is an important topic by itself.

The report found that MMT gasolines had a profound negative effect on LEV and Tier 2 LEV emissions, and that profound negative effect became worse past 80,000km / 50,000mi.

For example: the LEV motors had increases of HC, CO, and NOx. The Tier 2 LEV motors had *dramatic* increases of HC, CO, and NOx as a result of using MMT additives.

Is that a lie? Do you take exception to that particular finding?

MMT will also reduce the operational life of O2 sensors and catalytic converters. I would imagine this will further increase HC, CO, and NOx emissions.

And you didn't answer at all the ACEA WWFC and their position on MMT.

Nor did you comment on why Ethyl - rather than take on the serious health issue raised by Transport Canada and the Ministry of Environment - instead turned the MMT issue into a NAFTA p****** contest that Canada was guaranteed to lose. The Canadian taxpayer even had to pay Ethyl's legal costs in the matter.

I suppose if your job depends on the continued worldwide use of MMT, then I can understand your blind support of it in addition to your outright refusal to acknowledge any detrimental sensor effect or serious health effect.

I do take exception to changing the topic around to blaming me somehow for the use of MMT. I believe you have somehow labeled me a hypocrite for having purchased a 2000 GMC Sierra while refusing to use MMT gasolines.

I will admit the GMC was the only vehicle I purchased with my feelings instead of my brains, and I regret ever doing so. At the same time, I'm intelligent enough to question such a dramatic topic-twister as the one you started.

You might as well blame me for buying a computer: lots of toxic materials are involved in the production of semiconductor components, computers use a lot of electricity, the phone line or cable modem connection also use electricity, etc.

But you also use a computer too, right?

I also have to fly extensively using commercial air transport. Last time I checked, a Boeing 767, Airbus A320, and similar civilian passenger transports ran on Jet-A, which is a kerosene fuel used quite well in high bypass ratio turbofan motors.

I'm also well aware that Jet-A is usually blended with Prist to avoid icing.

Last time I checked, 100LL and similar AvGas is used in air cooled piston engines from Continental and Lycomming. You'll find these motors in small civilian aircraft, like the Cessna Skyhawk and 172.

I find it ironic that you stated your father was forced out of Ethyl as he would rather have told the "truth" to the Swedish EPA than lie for Ethyl. I can only wonder what "truth" that might have been?

You have stated that only Toyota and GM are concerned about the use of MMT. I find it rather odd how the Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers’ Association, and the Association of International Automobile Manufacturers of Canada, appear to share uniform concern about the use of MMT in gasolines.

The one thing I have noticed about large secretive chemical companies is that they routinely lie to the public. This has been proven time after time. "It's perfectly safe, it's good for you, it's not that bad for you, we've done a Chapter 11 so just try to sue us you idiots."

I, like most people, have no need to know how to design a chemical reactor to make MMT. I just want to know the health effects of a chemical, not be threatened with lawsuits for just asking the d*** question.

Unlike the vast majority of people, given my industrial process control background, I could probably reverse-engineer a chemical reactor quite well thank you. With or without heat exchanger? Any need for sensors like ORP?

So quit turning this serious discussion into a vain attempt at blaming us for the “problems†of large secretive chemical companies. All you've earned is the Ignore button.

 

Oh, the ignore button....well, you certainly showed me a thing or two didn't you? Ha, well, guess I won't bother responding since you've chosen to ignore me. I realize it's easy to shut out someone else's opinions as soon as you've said your peace. After all, you don't have to face opposition when you just turn your back on someone's opinions. Very big of you, and I thank you for making it easy to walk away from this conversation. The GM reference was meant as a joke, with only half truths behind it, I thought CPA's and accountants were the bland, no sense of humor types...but I guess we can add industrial engineers to the mix too right?

As far as needing an MMT job, sorry buddy, I'm a CPA, my work is pretty much secured wherever I go. People may not need MMT, but we all need accountants. Well, let me know how building that MMT reactor goes, and let me know how easy it is to get ahold of the process technology. Because, without a technology, you've only built a reactor. The reason that the others have failed is because they don't own, and do not have access to the intellectual property rights of MMT production....but hey, you brought it up, I suppose to make yourself out to seem smarter than you really are. I'm not here to compare brain pans Einstein, I was only offering an opinion. You, apparently have turned it into a personal attack, you've got that "Why did you slap my mother" type air about you, when in all honesty, you shouldn't take it so personally.

Cheers

Dave.

 

Dave:

So ... you're a CPA. You made a previous post regarding MMT

" A lot of information I have about Ethyl I cannot give out because it would be illegal for me to do so. A lot of information I can give out about MMT, it's licensing, reactor information, and usefullness as an additive other than what you've read I cannot give out for the same reasons."

That sort of implied you were an expert, at least an engineering type. In my line of work, industrial process control, trade secrets are standard practise. I'm curious though how a CPA would have or even need detailed engineering data.

I ask as I have never seen a CPA anywhere near a large chemical reactor, or for that matter even in the control room.

I suppose that goes a long way to you not being able to answer any of the questions I have raised from the Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association report that was highly critical of MMT and its effect on Tier 2 LEV emissions control

Now, if anybody would like to have a *serious* discussion of MTBE, MMT, and other additives and their potential threat to our health or vehicle operation, please feel free to post.

Jay

 

Hey, I thought you ignored me....well, if you had read my posts, I work with industry experts who work with MMT licensing technology, reactors, and shipment. My Father, who owns the consulting firm, contracts me to do their accounting work because I cut him a break on the fees. This work also involves me doing field audits of inventory, shipping documents, and physical inspections of plants pertaining to their inventory. So, I never claimed to be an expert in the field as you presumed I was. I'm around it daily, I see what I have to see, and nothing more. When family is involved in the business as much as I am, I tend to pick up here and there on the day to day issues. I have a Bachelor's in Chemistry, a Bachelor's in Accounting, and an MBA in finance...the Chemical and R&D factors I understand, so don't assume I know nothing of the technology, and nothing of MMT. Legally, and ethically, I can give you nothing other than what I already have, just base information...I'm sorry if you feel that I was attacking you personally, and I'm sorry you have buyers remorse about your GMC Truck...I'm not going to get into a never ending argument with you concerning MMT, your views are limited to Canadian trade articles, and that seems to be the only sources you will defend, that's fine. I'll leave you to your serious discussion, or rather, I'll leave you open to anyone else that will agree with you without question, you seem to take offense to anything that contradicts your views. I can't help you with that problem.

Now put me back on your ignore list, please.

Regards,

Dave.

 

Here it goes again, Hybrid Dave in charge...MTBE was a reaction by the oil industry to government pressure to reduce emissions from lead, by replacing the component. Dupont and Chevron had hands in it, but Government SERIOUSLY pressed the oil industry to solve the pollution problem, not realizing they were creating a new one. I won't quote the Congressman who made a public statement to this FACT., but this is similar to AIR BAGS. Government pressure initially rushes engineers to develop technology, before it can be fully tested and looked at, PC minded politicians jump on a bandwagon with the environmentalists not far behind, and voila..problem solved. Or was it ? In the case of air bags, force had to be reduced, Ford even resorted to using ignition key de-activation for front right seats, and in the case of MTBE it is now found to cause ground water contamination. Just a quick run down from an uneducated Navy and Civilian helicopter pilot (retired) and a High School AutoCAD and drafting Teacher, ps BS in Industrial Engineering, minor in Marine and Nuclear engineering..but what do I know..

 

IALTMANN, grow up, don't let the distain of another thread you were involved in pour into other threads as well...you don't like what I have to say, then use the ignore button. But don't stalk me from thread to thread harping on things I say, then carrying it into other threads. You're a High School teacher? What do you do, teach your lesson plans at gunpoint? Come on man, settle your beef with me in the thread it should be settled in, I'm flattered, but really, stop stalking me, Marines aren't supposed to be into other guys enough to follow them around on their heels begging for attention. But really, it's touching, thanks, but no thanks. Your credentials are very impressive. I stand in awe.

:lol:

 

HD, not knowing the prior nature to whatever supposed debates you've had, to which you refer, I'd have to say the previous msg was a fair argument and assessment (we don't have to agree with all his interpretations and implications), yet isn't it still relevant to this thread's discussion?

(and I think he made studies in Marine engineering - not a *Marine*??) sheesh..

The view just doesn't seem so absolutist, but that's just me...

I'm just glad however, we can all share a fundamental, core bond and alliance here with respect to exploiting and promoting our Prii and Hybrid tech in general!

Have a good weekend guys~

 

Just Facts man...hate to see con jobs and details from one side. I am not following you around, just happened to read y our stuff and could not stand it. By your lack of response on the subject matter I assume you do not dispute that. Anyway will stay away from you as much as I can, would not want you to get unconfortable with yourself.

 

Thank you Hyack..cute trick on the signature..anyway right not in the United States Marine Corp., the degree refers to shipboard power plants, was in the Navy. Hey tell me how to do that trick....

 

opps posted twice..sorry Dave..