"Major" Announcement about Toyota's fuel cell program coming at the Los Angeles Auto Show

Isn't that another photo of Toyota's "Fine-T" (aka "Fine-X") that we've heard & seen over the past few years? (Also reputed to be a FC or FC hybrid)

Or is there reason to expect something truly new?

 

Sigh, . . . when I read, "Major" Announcement about Toyota's fuel cell program coming . . . .

I was hoping Toyota was finally anouncing it was coming to an end. To be honest, hydrogen ought to be called, "Even as we run out of fossel fuel needed to MAKE hydrogen, here's how to best divert millions of research dollars that would best be spent on PHEV's or even better, pure electric." There was an electrical engineer that did the calc's recently on another site, pointing out that you waste more energy MAKING hydrogen for a hydrogen car (not even counting the energy needed for storage), that you could have used to power a battery car and even greater distance than you'd have gone on the million dollar hydrogen car. Sigh.

But heck, if the free governmental research dollars are flowing, why shouldn't toyota prostitute their self toward big bucks, just like GM does. Like minded folks have gone to these shows and pointed out what a waste the "maybe in 10 (more) years" hydrogen technology is ... only to be escorted away from the exhibits. Well, you can't blame the exibitors ... they only want to push pr fluf.

 

I know this sounds terribly shallow, but I like the color.

 

The first FCHV sports car?

Is it me or the trunk / hatch glass is missing?

 

It's actually atomic-powered; you'd own a few different back sections with different power ratings for city, town, and freeway driving...just plug in the one you want, and go!!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Oct 30 2007, 06:23 PM) [snapback]532684[/snapback]</div>

Perhaps, but what if the hydrogen conversion facility is located right at the electrical power plant? Electricity suffers MAJOR losses in it's transmission. So much so, that I recently read that if we could replace all of our electrical grid with low loss super-conducting materials (not practical, granted), we wouldn't need any new power plants for 100 years. Hydrogen wouldn't have such issues, though it does have the conversion overhead and trucking overhead. Are those costs higher or lower than the transmission losses of electricity? I don't know.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Oct 30 2007, 08:23 PM) [snapback]532684[/snapback]</div>

They are.

From the link:

The very first announcement was for the new full-size Sequoia.

The second was for the update on their fuel-cell development.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Mr. Zorg @ Oct 30 2007, 11:36 PM) [snapback]532735[/snapback]</div>

The total average power loss in the US is under 8%. While I would love to see that cut its not too bad. Hydrogen has huge losses all around. Even in a insulated tank it boils off slowly.

An 8% savings would not keep us from needing to build new plants for 100 years. Many types of plants need to be rebuilt or so totally overhauled it is the same cost as building from scratch.

 

I don't know why they aren't working on a car that runs on compressed natural gas and petrol and is a hybrid?
CNG is mostly hydrogen 95% methane (4 hydrogen atoms to each carbon atom.)
If a Prius ran on CNG in local commuting and petrol for longer journeys wouldn't that reduce carbon emissions from 90% less than a conventional car down to 98% less? Could CNG tanks be fitted in the space under the floor? Would the conversion be cheaper than a battery pack? Tanks could be made from lightweight composite materials making them removable for long journeys were space is at a premium. A small high pressure compressor would be needed to compress the gas to very high pressures. There are route buses here in Adelaide running on CNG so it can be done.
Am I talking crap?

In this equation it is worth remembering that the hydrogen you will need for a fuel cell will most likely come from natural gas.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hill @ Oct 30 2007, 09:23 PM) [snapback]532684[/snapback]</div>

I'd still bet a dime that Toyota will announce the end of their fuel cell car development, except perhaps for methanol fuel cells. Production, transport and storage of hydrogen are all too problematic.