Is the US "a Christian country"? And

From the "Treaty of Peace and Friendship between the United States and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli and Barbary" (bold emphasis mine):

This treaty was written in 1796, and was read aloud to the U.S. Senate in 1797, where it was approved unanimously. It was then signed by one of the founding fathers, President John Adams.

Since the senate was then made up mostly of the same people that created our nation, and wrote our constitution a short 10 years earlier, this should pretty much end the argument. Our own government proclaimed that the United States is a secular nation, and was never formed as a Christian nation. There it is in their own words! I'm afraid it can't be any more clear, or any simpler than that.

It is worth noting that this treaty was written, ratified, and signed before Jefferson ever mentioned a "wall of separation" between of church and state.

Want to learn more? The Wikipedia entry on the treaty can be found here.

Dan

 

Here is what our Founding Fathers wrote about Bible-based Christianity:

Thomas Jefferson:

I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.
SIX HISTORIC AMERICANS,
by John E. Remsburg, letter to William Short

Jefferson again:
Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul, the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus.

More Jefferson:
The clergy converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact, constitute the real Anti-Christ.
Jefferson's word for the Bible?
Dunghill.

John Adams:
Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?

Also Adams:
The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.

Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli. Article 11 states:
The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion.


Here's Thomas Paine:
I would not dare to so dishonor my Creator God by attaching His name to that book (the Bible).

Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible).

It is the duty of every true Deist to vindicate the moral justice of God against the evils of the Bible.

Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and you will have sins in abundance.

The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person (Jesus) who lived a life of poverty.


Finally let's hear from James Madison:

What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy.

Madison objected to state-supported chaplains in Congress and to the exemption of churches from taxation. He wrote:

Religion and government will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together.

These founding fathers were a reflection of the American population. Having escaped from the state-established religions of Europe, only 7% of the people in the 13 colonies belonged to a church when the Declaration of Independence was signed.

 

I think alot of folks have forgotten about the the wisdom of these men. If the Christian folks weren't pushing so hard to turn the US into a church where everyone has the same beliefs then the left, atheists and free thinkers would not be forced to fight for things like Happy Holidays.
These new "churches" that have a huge following of people who participate in services that are cult like in their blind devotion scare the h**l out of me. It makes me think of Body Snatchers....if you do not change you will be absorbed....

We need to remeber that Freedom of Religion does also apply to the right to not have religion in your life.

 

1) No.

2) I don't think God is that interested in human politics. We're on our own a lot more than we might wish to be and better grow up and get used to it.

 

If the Constitution is a divinely inspired document, which Amendment to it is divinely inspired: the 18th Amendment providing for Prohibition...or the 21st Amendment which repealed Prohibition? :blink:

 

nope. i think the majority of people who have a voice in this country are christian, and they feel that although everyone is equal, some are more equal than others, if you know what i'm saying.

hmm. interesting that there was so much controversy surrounding a catholic president for fear of that happening... well for fear that the pope would run the country, which depending on what you believe may or may not be god running the country...

i suppose if anyone needs divine intervention in this country, it's our own George W. and i don't mean that as a compliment.

to take these in reverse order: i think it was a fantastic idea.. when actually put into use. nowadays it's not being put into use because the religious folks think that their ideals should be mandated by the government and therefore forced upon everyone regardless of creed or religion or lack thereof. and all i can say is that it's a shame there aren't many places to go for the rest of us to start the whole process over and start a new country... because this is looking like what got people looking to get the hell out of england.

jack... this has the makings of one really long thread and one really interesting debate.

 

Yes

For let's face it, if the majority of its Citizens weren't Christian, would we really have national holidays such as Christmas, Easter, etc.? We sure as heck don't get any days off for any Islamic holidays...

"Various stripes of Christians point to "In God We Trust" on our currency, "...endowed by their Creator..." in the Declaration, "...under God" in the Pledge and manger motifs in village squares as proof that we're a "God-fearing", Christian country."

They're right. Not sure if that "proves" it, but, at the very least, reasonably indicates a majority.


and,


No


Keep in mind, what goes on paper is one thing, decisions made by men, ethical guidance of these decisions, a totally other.

 

Dan, this is a bogus quote. The phrase was inserted by the interpreter in France after the treaty was signed, perhaps as a prank. You can find the original, with the phrase inserted, but a clear footnote detailing its bogus origin, in your local library (the Reference section will have a series of green-cover books with the text of all treaties the US has ratified).

The "widipedia" is a "user-contributed" reference, and is often glaringly wrong. It simply cannot be used as an authoritative source.

 

The pledge thing is a cold war addition to seperate us from the "godless communists". The original 1892 pledge didn't have that bit. It was added in 1954.

Anyways, let's face it. "Christian Values" are not some sort of immutable constant. These cultural values have changed, quite dramactically in some instances, over the years.

 

The United States was the first country to officially "disestablish" any support for or ties to any particular religion. The founders recognized that with a coalition of 13 states, each with their own religious heritage, they would never agree on a central church to support. The states, as of the Constitution's founding, were allowed to continue official ties with their state churches, and some did. MA was the last to sever ties with a church, in the 1830's, IIRC.

The concept was brewing in the hearts and minds of the colonists for some 200 years, with very strongly religious folks deciding to strike out on their own, such as Roger Williams, the founder of Rhode Island. Religious liberty was a central item on the wish list of most in the colonies. Even so, the Church of England pressed down with a heavy hand.

The largest selling book in the colonies just before the revolution was the "Commentaries on the Laws of England" by William Blackstone (actually, it was second to the Bible). Blackstone's impact was great; in his "Introduction the Second" he posits that true happiness is found only when a man finds God, and that a man can only find God through his own search, and cannot be guided, coerced or legislated into a relationship with God. Blackstone wrote that man must be free of religious coercion in order to "pursue his Happiness" and that religious freedom was therefore necessary to enable religious practice. I believe the phrase "pursuit of Happiness" in our Declaration of Independence is a reference to this idea, and a slap in the face of both King George and the Parliment, by using their own "textbook" against them.

Jefferson's famous phrase about a "wall of separation" is notable also in that it is in response to a letter from the Danbury Baptists, who were afraid that Jefferson would institute a federal church. The Baptists did not want a federal church; they recognized disestablishment allowed them the freedom to practice their religion as they saw fit.

So my fellow Christians who talk about a "Christian America" are wrong about the founding of the country. But so are most of their critics today, who think our founders were "deists, not Christians" and pull quotes out of context to try and prove that men like Adams (a devout and very religious man) were agnostics. Any Christian could also be a deist; they were not mutually exclusive. (BTW - Adams didn't believe in creeds because his CHURCH didn't).

American is not a Christian Nation, but is a nation of Christians. Separation of Church and State is a concept born of the shared experiences of mostly Christians, some Unitarians (whom I consider Christians), a very few agnostics and atheists, and a few Jews. Our culture was very strongly influenced ... for good and bad ... by the theology of the various Christian churches, and our laws reflected those sentiments. Its always funny to see those who decry the "Christian White Culture's treatment of Native Americans" who then turn around and say we weren't based on Christian culture.

Different Christian theologies exist regarding the amount of intervention by God in the daily affairs of man. The deist Christians in the 18th century believed that the Creator wound up the universe, and then did not intervene again. Some deist Christians, such as Ben Franklin, believed that God would intervene in the affairs of a nation because a nation did not have a conciousness that God could influence otherwise (Franklin, while a diest, was also a titheing member of Christ Church, Philadelphia, where he is buried).

If you study the writings in the colonial period, you will see that the culture was infused with Christianity. We were, and for the most part still are, a nation of Christians. But we have always shared with our fellow children of God who don't share our beliefs.

 

Who was it that put "in God we Trust" on our money?..the church or the government?

What about the pledge of allegiance to the Flag.. "one nation under God" Whose idea was that?.. the church or the government?

Why are the 10 Commandments written all over our monuments?... Did the all powerful church force them?

There alot I don't know about history, but

It amazes me how the smarter some people get and the more they know the more they can't see.

I guess thats why Jesus said....
(Mat 11:25 KJV) At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

 

I have met few Christians, and no self-proclaimed "devout Christians", that believe in God. They believe in their opinion of God -- the "I believe it therefore it must be true" mentality. They do not distinguish between God and their own thought processes. "God fearing" no. The creator/designer of the universe understands my flaws. I have faith in that. Everything else is on me and my own thought processes. I am "religious-people-fearing". They hold inquisitions, they exterminate Jews, they fly planes into buildings, they pass laws to define marriage.

 

To this I say "Amen"!

IMHPO

Historically, humanity has a need to look up to something, to follow something that is more powerful than himself. That something must be "super-human" in all forms - being able to do things that no normal human being can do.

Since there is nothing more powerful here on this earth than man, we conjured up an image of this "super-human" in the form of God. It makes us feel good to follow something. When things happen which we cannot explain, God is always the answer. Now that science can pretty much explain everything, there are less miracles and less references to God.

When 20 children die in a plane crash, ...its either "God's Will" or "the work of the Devil". Which is it? If God was all powerful, than he would never let the Devil do such things. If God was the epitome of love, he wouldn't let 20 children die.

Organized religion in itself is a cult. We give our money, herd ourselves into a building once or more a week, and are fed the propaganda /pep talks to keep us in line for the rest of the week. In some cases, from early on you are taught to live in fear.

These are just my personal opinions and I never, ever push it on anyone or make them try to understand. I've actually been attacked for my non-belief. Are "Christians" supposed to act that way?

Fshagan... said it best:

Believe in whatever God you want...it is the right for every living person in the United States to do so. For that, I am thankful.

And believe it or not, I was not struck by lightening while typ #(%@*%)_^......

 

it amazes me how the churches push this two-faced creature upon us. it is all-knowing and loves and cares about everyone, then it turns around and demands pain, suffering and sacrifice.

it sounds so... contradictory.

 

Freedom of speech protects both.... God fearing to speak and not.

But most of the ones I hear accusing Christians of being non tolerant are much more non tolerant?

If somoeone doesn't believe in God, what the harm of allowing those who do to express it.... I mean why is it so offensive if God is not real anyway? What harm can it bring?

Sometimes I think aethesist believe in God more than Christians.. they are just mad at him.

 

I'm not sure if you're referring to something like school prayer. My question is, if someone advocates school prayer, are you advocating Christian prayer, or prayer based on the majority of the shool.

I lived in 2 cities where the majority of kids were Jewish or Hindu. Is the teacher going to lead the majority of the class in reciting from the Torah, or pray to Vishnu?

Anyway, we go to church every Sunday, pray before every meal. My wife is a devoted Lutheran. I feel that my children are not suffering in their religious upbringing because they can't pray in school. I myself will sometimes say a prayer while I'm on the elliptical machine in the gym, driving in my car or just sitting on the toilet! I don't think I need a teacher, who may not even be religous, leading my kids in prayer. It's a family issue and should be taken care of by the family. I don't want my local, state or federal goverment involved in our worship.

 

I have a problem with interpreting a phrase "Christian Nation"; in other words if there is overwhelming voluntary adherence to the Christian beliefs within a population fine with me, therefore one can state that USA is a "Christian Nation" and there is a statistical data to prove it. I prefer Jeffersonian concept of separation of church and state, as the moral and ethical interpretations of Christianity vary, and are open to never-ending interpretations. Not to mention that religiosity suits many politicians as another propagandistic tool to manipulate with the masses, while obscuring the real issues that confront modernity.

Here is an example why I have a problem to abide to any religious dogma:
I hear some pro-life crowd preaching about "sanctity of life" and abortion being a mortal sin but at the same time putting a blind eye to the "Death Penalty"