Featured I don't want an EV. I want an affordable plug-in hybrid that doesn't look stupid. Rocket science?

I know plenty of people who gave up their ugly Prius for a more spacious and normal looking Ford Hybrid and no complaints from any of them yet.

As for EVs being powered by coal, that's less and less true every day. In 2008, the U.S. used about 2.8 million tons of coal per day, but in 2023, that number dropped to about 1.1 million tons per day.

As for EVs using lots of rare earth's that's becoming less and less true because new advancements in battery design are more profitable by eliminating the need for those. What's more, there's so many countries ramping up lithium production that there's a supply glut and it has tanked the value of lithium per ton by 81% in just the past year alone.

 

Several of my friends had the Ford Fusion plug-in.

A little light on trunk space, but it fit the bill.

The early ones were plagued with bad infotainment but the last ones made were wonderful cars. I wish we had been able to get one.

 

Tell us how you really feel

you’ll have the best of both worlds, coal powered ev, and then fossil fool engine

 

Coal use has been shrinking rapidly for years.

Backup cameras are now required on all automobiles built for the North American market since spring 2018. Federal regulations don't give you an opt-out.

What EV batteries use rare-earth elements? I'm not aware of any significant use in lithium-family batteries. Lithium, iron, phosphate, nickel, manganese, cobalt, and titanium are not rare-earth elements.

The nickel-metal-hydride batteries used in many (older) hybrids do have rare-earths. "Typically, NiMHBs contain 10 wt% of rare earth elements (REEs) including La, Ce, Nd, and Pr." But I thought the EV market mostly skipped these battery chemistries and went direct to various lithium types.

EVs may use rare-earths in motor magnets, but alternatives exist. Other electronics often use rare-earths too, but that is a larger electronics issue, not specific to EVs.

 

My question is how feasible is a cheap plug-in hybrid? It's kind of like two vehicles in one. It seems to me that a non-hybrid would be cheaper to buy, and maybe in the future an all-EV could be cheaper to buy than a hybrid.

But I hear your frustration for getting the car you want for the price you want. I like all cars, which is why I also hate all cars, because I can't own all cars. Personally I've given up on getting a car I like. I'll go with the cheapest option because I don't make a lot of money and can't afford a new car anyway. With an income like mine, all I can do is to be happy with the leftovers that society has decided to sell so as to keep that new car smell in their lives. As long as it gets me and mine from point A to point B, that's all that matters.

If the community put in public transportation that could get me from point A to point B, then I might not even keep owning a car. Or better yet if they didn't design our streets around here as pedestrian slaughtering death traps, I might even just walk or ride a bike.

Shouldn't this topic be in FHofP?

 

Prii have always been efficiency and aero first and styling second.

There is one reason why we don’t have affordable plug-in hybrids. Toyota and others can make ten hybrids in the place of one plug-in. Battery production is still not high enough regardless of optimistic reports about raw materials.

With straight hybrids, profits are higher and car supply is ten times better.

 

All I want is cheap transportation:

• $2.50 / 100 miles - Tesla, not including free charging
• $2.75 / 100 miles - BMW i3-REx, not including free charging

EVs are the ultimate, flex fuel, because of the many sources like in Alabama:

Electric Power Generation: 152.9 TWh (4% total U.S.)

Natural Gas: 55.7 TWh, 36% [13.5 GW total capacity]
Coal: 45.6 TWh, 30% [12.6 GW total capacity]
Nuclear: 40.8 TWh, 27% [5.3 GW total capacity]
Hydro: 7.4 TWh, 5% [3.3 GW total capacity]
Petroleum: 0.1 TWh, <1% [0.05 GW total capacity]
Other Renewable: 0 TWh, 0% [0 GW total capacity]​

Bob Wilson

 

More I think about it more it makes sense to buy a cheap ten year old Nissan Leaf $3K for daily around town and have a cheap old Prius $4k for longer drives.

 

Funny expression, with a boatload of inference. I wouldn’t doubt it’s been used on the job, at NASA.

 

Yeah, I really hate the way ev’s are being shoved down everyone’s throat, you can’t find a nice clean gasser, hybrid or phev anywhere.

 

Around here you can find gassers and hybrids on the Toyota lots much less the Hyundai place. Plug-ins still command a $10k markup partially because one dealer buys them up from other dealers.

 

How about a 2012 Prius PiP?

You get a camera because the Feds say so. Those doofy screens are everywhere. Current sales literature makes a point out of how big a screen you get. The manufacturers seem convinced that we love them, maybe to watch TV while the car drives itself or something. In the American market the Feds keep layering on more and more stuff that you *must* have. It all costs money. The only way out is to get an older car, from back before all that clutter was dreamed up.

The obsessive quest for more and more safety is a large part of what's driving new car prices out of reach of normal everyday people.

 

What’s affordable?

 

could have had my 12 pip with 87k for 7k.
Drop in a new engine and you’re golden.
And 12 miles of coal powered range!

 

Yep, that makes sense to a degree.

The main reason I got rid of the Leaf was it was our nice car. And having to take the old car to go to important places, like the inlaws, and using the nice shiny car for commuting to and from work didn't make sense to my wife (nor to me after the fact).

I would be concerned that a $3k Leaf wouldn't have very many years left on the battery before it went to zero miles range though, and a $8,000 battery in a $3,000 car doesn't make a lot of sense. That, and the only Leaf owner I know hates her Leaf because it now has only a couple dozen miles of range left on it.

 

An EV needs to be a timeless design with good ergonomics.that would justify a new battery ten years in. Otherwise you should trade it before the battery reduces the car’s value and desirability dramatically. Tesla has the formula but Toyota could trump them with quality fit and finish.

 

That's assuming that the battery has some sort of time bomb that goes off at 10 years or so (which li-ion kind of seems that way, but LFP could possibly go for several decades, although we don't know yet).

It's also assuming that batteries will be expensive (which again, they are right now and might be for a very, very long time).

As it stands there are older (10ish-year-old) Teslas, in the $15,000 to $20,000 used range that end up needing a new battery, that costs in the $15,000 to $20,000 price range. So I don't think Tesla has "the formula" just yet as paying for a battery that costs the same or more of what your car's current value is isn't going to be feasible for most people. You might as well as have bought a new Model 3 or Y for about the same amount of money.

But in 10 years, who knows how many 2023, 2024 or so model year Teslas will need a battery replacement, and if they do, how much that battery will cost by then.

 

I am not talking about buying a ten year old ev and then replacing the battery.

Ten years from now if I had a 2023 Model S or X and everything except the battery was functioning well, I would put in $15k-$20k for another ten years.

The driving I do would justify the seemingly high maintenance expense by itself. Reliable 20 year 500k cars will be the norm. Even if a mid life storage device replacement is needed. Ownership paradigms may shift to something similar to aircraft while still providing lower operating costs.

 

Another point for me is that if I need to get around at distances of a few miles, why not bike or walk as long as my legs can handle it?

My ideal setup would be one 2 or 4 person type of enclosed bike or tricycle with A/C and heat (battery powered?) but that requires pedal power and another car for distance driving. That and bike paths my bike/tricycle can go on.

If someone can afford a Model S or X and justify the purchase, I'm not going to argue what that person would do with their money.

if you buy a Model 3, according to what I'm getting from Edmund's TCO, it will lose about half it's value in 5 years. I would guess it would lose another 50% in another 5 years. So a $40,000 car becomes a $20,000 car and then a $10,000 in ten years.

From my point of view, I might buy my next car ten years from now. If I buy a ten-year-old standard range Tesla Model 3 for $10,000 and then not long after that it needs a $15,000 battery... I'm afraid that would be the day I quite driving.