hydrogen psychosis

Somehow, it appears PC missed the demise of Honda's hydrogen psychosis. The Leases will run out to this year, 2022 - but Honda cut their losses last year.

Honda seems to "know their audience".

https://thedriven.io/2021/06/23/honda-discontinues-clarity-hydrogen-fuel-cell-and-plug-in-hybrid/

 

Toyota to Assemble Fuel Cell Modules at Kentucky Plant in 2023 - Toyota USA Newsroom

Diesel fuel for large trucks =$6.25/gal. I would imagine this alternative can't come too quickly for truckers

"The dual fuel cell modules, which are a key component of an overall FC kit, weigh approximately 1,400 pounds and can deliver up to 160kW of continuous power. The FC kit also includes a high voltage battery, electric motors, transmission and hydrogen storage assembly from top-tier suppliers. Toyota will also offer its powertrain integration expertise that will help truck manufacturers adapt these emissions-free drivetrain systems to a wide variety of applications in the heavy-duty trucking sector."

Maybe it will help - maybe it won't- with the current fuel crisis but is a different alternative to gas and batteries.

Why is it so important to espouse one technology at the expense of another-more technologies = more choices.

Can you remember when Toyota made the first Prius and people laughed and guffawed at the idiotic idea of a Hybrid vehicle ( one that used batteries and electric motors) - it will never catch on- it will never sell- the technology isn't practical- who would buy one- the emf will give you brain disease etc

An open mind is a wonderful gift.

https://www.h2greentech.eu/a-hydrogen-strategy-for-a-climate-neutral-europe/

 

where would truckers fill up?

how many years do you keep an open mind (and wallet) when a technology continually disproves itself, and another proves itself?
i have no problem with any private entity keeping an open mind until they go belly up. i like my government to stay in business.

 

The government in my opinion should be providing for public safety and not involving itself in picking winners and losers in energy technology. but that is a different discussion and I realize that.

I admire your concern about government waste- hydrogen technology should be the least of your worries

Sen. Rand Paul Highlights $1.8 Billion in Wasteful Spending Through Weekly Waste Reports | Senator Rand Paul (senate.gov)

"Other examples of wasteful government spending uncovered through ‘The Waste Report’ include $8 million spent by the Department of Veterans Affairs to purchase solar panels that were never used and $28 million spent on heavy equipment lost by the Department of Defense in Afghanistan."

"In addition to the $1.8 billion spent on the wasteful projects highlighted in ‘The Waste Report,’ the March 7th edition of the report stressed the long-term fiscal dangers posed by the ever-growing national debt.

This year the federal government spent $255 billion for interest on our debt, meaning that every American owes about $800 this year to pay for interest alone. If you consider only those who pay their taxes, this figure rises to $2,700 per taxpayer."

This wasteful spending does not even address our penchant for printing monopoly money out of thin air and the resultant inflation it causes. Every time I hear government linked to words like initiative and project my hand involuntary goes to my wallet to make sure it is still in my back pocket.

 

i agree, and i never give it a thought, except when discussing it here. this is not much on the mind of most americans, i realize that.
just an opinion on this particular subject. my opinions won't change anything, including mrs b

 

The demo project for hydrogen trucks are short hauls between the California ports of Long Beach and Los Angeles, and depots. There are similar projects in japan and europe. Its pretty easy to set up fueling on these short haul routes, but that may be a competitive disadvantage for hydrogen against battery electric trucks. The trucks on these routes often sit long enough to fast charge without the driver waiting.

Still tech could come to make hydrogen storage at the fueling stations and in vehicles better. It really is not a waste of R&D dollars. It is a waste of commercialization dollars.

 

This news might be more in line with that of the Volt's failure.
"In addition to both the Clarity Plug-in Hybrid and Clarity Fuel Cell, Nikkei also reported that Honda would stop making the Legend, its high-end ICE sedan, as well as the Odyssey luxury SUV – all of which were made at the same factory in Sayama, Japan, which the company announced will close by March 2022."
Honda cancelled the Clarity along with a couple other models all made at a plant that they are shutting down. They aren't leaving the FCEV business.
Honda Isn't Giving up on Hydrogen, but EVs Remain Distant
Their partner, GM, has stepped away from FCEV passenger cars, but I haven't such statements from Honda.

I thought the Clarity PHEV was a decent model that Honda pulled support for before its demise.

Hydrogen ran between $10 to $17 a kilogram in California before the recent economy, and I think it was exempt from Ca use and sales tax.

At 6.5mpg average, a semi costs 0.96 cents a mile on diesel. Nikola claims 12 to 15 miles/kg with their semi, but research is showing 5.5 to 9.2 miles/kg with other class 8 FCEVs. Best case, the hydrogen is 67 cents a mile. More likely, there isn't going to be much in fuel savings. Then there is higher price and maintenance for the FCEV truck.
Hybridaztion can get a 16% improvement to the diesel truck for far less cost.
https://mdpi-res.com/d_attachment/cleantechnol/cleantechnol-03-00028/article_deploy/cleantechnol-03-00028.pdf?version=1622527243

Trucking might benefit from hydrogen, but companies and groups pushing hydrogen cars on public expense before they were ready has burned a lot of public goodwill.

Green hydrogen production will be limited in the beginning. Is using it in a new segment, transportation, more effective than having it displace grey hydrogen already in use for things like fertilizer?

Private militaries are a bad idea. The rest is for the other forum.

 

This is off news feed 5 hours ago, Link below:

Volvo has started testing trucks with fuel cells powered by hydrogen

“Hydrogen-powered fuel cell electric trucks will be especially suitable for long distances and heavy, energy-demanding assignments,” Roger Alm, president of Volvo Trucks, said.

"Competition within the sector has increased in recent years. Volvo Trucks’ focus on zero-emission technologies will put it in competition with companies like Tesla and JV partner Daimler Truck, which are both developing electric trucks.
Like Volvo Trucks, Daimler Truck is focusing on both battery-electric and hydrogen vehicles."

Hydrogen: A Geopolitical Game-changer for Future European Energy Security? — Climate Policy Lab

"IRENA notes that there are already more than 30 countries worldwide that are developing hydrogen strategies."

Seems Hydrogen shows promise to some to areas of the world? I hope their efforts are successful and change the worlds energy dynamic in a positive way.

I am certainly not going to dismiss it nor am I qualified to judge their efforts.

 

Volvo is now owned by the Chinese company geely, headquartered in Hong Kong. Certainly the Chinese are entitled to make their own mistakes. They'll figure that out quick enough.

As for Daimler? they've given up after learning what's stupid and what's not as well.

https://electrek.co/2020/04/22/daimler-ends-hydrogen-car-development-because-its-too-costly/
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Maybe hydrogen will work for trucks. Compared to passenger cars, the required infrastructure will be lower cost by virtue of not needing it where every gas station is today. That is why nearly every major car company has stopped working on FCEV passenger cars. If Honda has backed off from them, it leaves Toyota and Hyundai as the last ones, with Audi bucking their parent company.

And many have stopped working on fuel cells on their own, because of the costs. Volvo is working with Daimler. Honda is partnered with GM. Despite all the effort put into fuel cells, they are still short of design goals.

The world makes alot of hydrogen from fossil fuels. It is needed for ammonia before we need it for transportation. That supply needs to be decarbonized. Green hydrogen can also help in decarbonizing steel production. So the world needs green hydrogen even if fuel cells are never used in a vehicle.

If we make green hydrogen economically, making green ammonia and methane won't cost much more. Both of those have extensive transport infrastructure across the globe. Expanding them is also cheaper than building hydrogen infrastructure. Hydrogen infrastructure is so problematic that research is going into shipping it as ammonia, and then stripping it off at the use point.

Ammonia and methane can be used in a solid oxide fuel cell without additional equipment. They can even be burned in an engine. Methanol from methane is possible, as is green gasoline and diesel. Hydrogen has cleaner tailpipe emissions, but it is a high cost solution to bring to market.

 

China may be one of the leaders of the Hydrogen revolution

China sets green hydrogen target for 2025, eyes widespread use | Reuters

China's Green Hydrogen Projects: Exponential Growth Begins - Energy Iceberg

A complete list of China’s green hydrogen projects (substack.com)

China’s Hydrogen Energy Industry: State Policy, Investment Opportunities (china-briefing.com)
"The Chinese government has identified hydrogen energy as one of six industries of the future, and recently released plans that underscore its importance for both energy and industrial development. China is already the world’s largest hydrogen supplier, producing about 25 million tons of hydrogen – a quarter of global output."

Link to Germany Hydrogen strategy:
https://www.csis.org/analysis/germanys-hydrogen-industrial-strategy#:~:text=Germany%E2%80%99s%20hydrogen%20strategy%20is%20focused%20on%20achieving%20climate,the%20National%20Hydrogen%20Strategy%2C%20released%20in%20June%202020.

I am not pushing hydrogen and don't know a lot about it, but many countries and Industries are excited about its potential - why not explore it.

 

It isn’t a bad thing to explore.
It is just less efficient costly for passenger cars.
For long distance trucking, or fleets, it may be a good option.

For long term storage of excess renewable energy, it may also have a place.

But for passenger vehicles it is foolhardy. Square peg, meet round hole.

 

As I said before, we use hydrogen for a lot of things. Investing in greener ways to make it is a good thing. That doesn't mean expanding potential demand to the transportation sector is a good thing.

China is targeting 200k tonnes of green hydrogen production by 2025. That is probably the 10 listed projects coming online. Their hydrogen demand by 2030 is projected to be around 35 million tons. Their hydrogen now comes from coal and natural gas. They could go with sequestering, but that is a whole lot of CO2 to deal with.

They are also targeting a million hydrogen vehicles by 2030. If they want to spend the resources on that, more power to them. Such amounts for such adoption rates won't be possible in the US. Supporting plug ins is a lot cheaper, and we can't meaningfully do that.

 

Never invest in an endothermic reaction.

 

That made me wonder how much waste happens each year with hydrogen R&D.
Costs are going up - I know ... but even as of 2019 hydrogen R&D was roughly 44 million.
https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/review19/2019_amr_report_hydrogen_fuel.pdf
So in less than five years - that much waste discovered by Rand Paul is done by hydrogen. But hydrogen hasn't been a dead-end Highway for just 5 years. In fact every 10 years, the industry says it'll happen in 10 years. They've been saying that since the end of the 1960s.
.

 

You guys might want to tell China, Germany, and about 40 other nations, as well as Toyota, Volvo and many other companies who are actively perusing Hydrogen Strategies of your guy's insights on this matter so they can take advantage of your advice on Hydrogen. I am sure they will immediately stop their research and commitment once they are enlightened by internet posters.

Green Hydrogen Industry To Hit USD 10.22 Billion, at a CAGR of 57.41% by 2030 - Report by Market Research Future (MRFR)

I am not a Hydrogen buff just an observer of world trends.

 

You keep resorting to the same bad argument.
The people critical of hydrogen for passenger vehicles are not critical of hydrogen for fleet vehicles, industrial, storage of excess renewable energy in some cases.
What you post addresses the overall hydrogen industry, not specifically passenger vehicles.

 

I don't mean to argue - I think that is kind of silly and pointless.

I am speaking of the Hydrogen Industry as a whole. It is exciting and growing,offering new alternatives for energy.

Personal transport is a small but important part of this

Many Countries and Companies are actively pursuing Hydrogen for mobility- large scle public transportation, large scale trucking and in Europe and China for their citizens mobility.

I have neither the money or intelligence to add to the Hydrogen Strategy of these players.

I am also am not dismissive of their efforts, nor presumptous enough to declare Hydrogen for peronal transportation isn't practical.

I don't know this and believe there are people much smarter than me who could possibly make this practical.

Belief in science and research is a positve energy - saying something isn't possible or shouldn't be tried, or is dead could be considered negative energy. I think countires their citizens and scientist may bring solutions to the tabe that haven't yet been considered and may change the dynamc. I think your beef might be with the original post that completely dismisses a potential technolgy for transportation

I am pointing out these countries and scientist believe that Hydrogen has great potential for mobility energy as well as possibly being part of the solution for the world's energy needs.

 

Whistleblower speaks out against hydrogen from inside the fossil fuel industry.

Oil firms made ‘false claims’ on blue hydrogen costs, says ex-lobby boss | Hydrogen power | The Guardian

Once a company knows what side of the bread that the butter is on, it's easy to understand the reality of hydrogen.