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Hybrids from a European perspective

Discussion in 'Other Cars' started by bookrats, Apr 22, 2004.

  1. bookrats

    bookrats New Member

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    Interesting article that Google pointed me to -- someone arguing that a "mild" hybrid (i.e., like the Honda Civic hybrid) is better suited to Europe.

    One of the people interviewed argues that if you're not having to meet the California ZEV/PZEV emissions level, that a more cost-effective car (because it's cheaper to build) is a mild hybrid, in particular a diesel mild hybrid. (A diesel true hybrid would be even more cost-effective, though.)

    I can see his point of view, but since I think the '04 Prius is showing that it's not that much more expensive to make a true hybrid car (once you know how :) ), why not, and get lower emissions to boot?
     
    #1 bookrats, Apr 22, 2004
  2. Ken Cooper

    Ken Cooper New Member

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    This table borrowed from another article seems to tell a different story.

    Honda Civic ........... Hybrid ..... Gas engine
    EPA size class ....... compact .. compact
    EPA mileage .......... 47/48 ...... 35/40
    Annual fuel cost .... $627 ....... $804
    Price ..................... $20,140 .. $13,500.


    Toyota ................... Prius ......... Camry
    EPA size class ........ midsize ..... midsize
    EPA mileage ........... 60/51 ........ 23/32
    Annual fuel cost ..... $544 ......... $1,121
    Price ...................... $20,801 .... $19,560
     
    #2 Ken Cooper, Apr 22, 2004
  3. bookrats

    bookrats New Member

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    I think what the article may have been referring to was that, whatever the price difference between the Honda Civic Hybrid and the Toyota Prius, it's currently cheaper to build the Civic.

    I don't know if that's true; I suspect the larger battery and the high-voltage system in the Prius would be a significant part of the cost, so I could see it being true.

    However, as someone else posted today re: the "slippery slope" of technology: the more real (non-mild) hybrids get sold, the cheaper batteries become to make, the cheaper it is to make, etc.
     
    #3 bookrats, Apr 22, 2004
  4. HTMLSpinnr

    HTMLSpinnr Super Moderator
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    On the topic of Diesel hybrids, is it possible to stop/start a diesel in a full hybrid setup? Would there be a need for some heafty glow-plugs to ensure that the combustion chamber was warm enough to facilitate the combustion at startup? I'm sure all of this has been worked out since FedEx is using Diesel hybrids and other Diesel hybrids exist in Japan and other parts of the world.
     
    #4 HTMLSpinnr, Apr 22, 2004
  5. DonDNH

    DonDNH Senior Member

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    One thing that isn't clear for either the Honda or the Toyota, is how much is the manufacturer subsidizing the MSRP. I've seen estimates that the Prius is subsidized about $2500/car and the Honda $1700. These are based on estimates of recovery of the R&D costs which at the moment just isn't happening.
     
    #5 DonDNH, Apr 23, 2004
  6. Wolfman

    Wolfman New Member

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    Nope. Common rail injection has fuel pressures well over 20,000 PSI. The fuel atomization is extremely fine at these pressures, making the fuel very easy to ignite. While MB is still using glowplugs in their CDI engines, spooling up a diesel engine in a similar manner that Toyota spools up the engine in the Prius before lighting it off would not be any problem at all.
     
    #6 Wolfman, Apr 23, 2004
  7. bookrats

    bookrats New Member

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    I definitely heard that there was significant subsidization for the Prius Classic (i.e., that Toyota was either not making a profit, or barely making a profit.) However, they've definitely said they make a profit on the '04 Prius.

    However, that doesn't answer your question on what the "true cost" of a Prius or Civic Hybrid is, and how much each company is subsidizing them. I'm not sure we'll ever find out -- I can't imagine either company letting that info out if they can help it.
     
    #7 bookrats, Apr 23, 2004
  8. DonDNH

    DonDNH Senior Member

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    Neither can I.

    Have you heard how much Ford paid for the old technology license? That's sure to help a little.
     
    #8 DonDNH, Apr 23, 2004
  9. siai

    siai Junior Member

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    After a cold start (with glow plug assist) the engine should be able to be restarted warm without glow plugs. Also to get a smooth start (such as needed with the toyota power split device) compression release could be used until the engine is rotated up to speed. Even the current Prius doesn't initate fuel injection until the engine is close to running speed.
     
    #9 siai, May 16, 2004
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