Hot for a hybrid? 9 things to consider

Again with the misinformation about the "highly toxic" battery packs...

These are not your father's NiCd batteries... these are not your father's Lead Acid batteries. NiMH is one of the safest battery technologies, and isn't 'highly toxic.'

Moreover, the article talks about the battery like there isn't already a recycling program in place to deal with the batteries if and when they give up in the lifetime of the car.

 

okay here we go again. they keep on comparing the prius to it's non-hybrid counterpart.... which is...? i dont know about the media, but i dont know of any non-hybrid prius so there's just no comparison to make. :blink:

they also mention not getting good efficiency... then why do they think the prius (or other hybrids) are getting a lot of attention? because forums such as PC provide evidence that we are getting great mileage. just recently gas prices here in hawaii reached a high of $3.90....(had gone down since then because of our gas cap law) i dont know about them but the prius was getting such great mileage, it made the pain at the pump tolerable.

 

Would you settle for "toxic"?

 

No, I wouldn't.

Why do these people write articles like this without bothering to talk to people who know what the hell they are talking about?

Firehouse Magazine's Hybrid Extrication Article.

Have you ever seen an MSDS Sheet for a Lead-Acid Battery?

How about Gasoline?

Or Antifreeze?

Or one particular brand of brake fluid?

I could continue, but I won't.

Now, compare that to the NiMH Battery MSDS.

At the very worst, a NiMH battery is only minimally more dangerous than all the other crap your car is filled with. Realistically, though, it's no more dangerous than anything else. Even stupid firefighters (I'm allowed to say that - I am one) can figure out to not cut bright orange cabling.

I'm a Hazardous Materials Technician, so I think I'm qualified to talk about this. If you read the Firehouse article or the NiMH MSDS sheet, it says that you can put out a NiMH Battery fire with a Class D chemical extinguisher, or sand. You can also dilute the electrolyte with a dilute vinegar solution.

You know what the Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) for a NiMH fire is?

The same thing Firefighters wear for every fire - bunker pants, a nomex hood, and Self-Contained Breathing Apparatus (SCBA).

The NIOSH Pocket Guide entry for Gasoline has all kinds of nasty things about gasoline, which is highly toxic, with a lowest published toxic concentration for humans of 900ppm for 1 hour. That's not a lot.

You know what the NIOSH Pocket Guide says for KOH (Potassium Hydroxide)? Not much - see for yourself. Guess where you see KOH every day?

KOH is lye. *gasp*. Drain cleaner will KILL US ALL. You know what the biggest danger from KOH is? It's caustic.

Well, what about Nickel Metal then? Again, some warnings, but not anything "HIGHLY TOXIC".

Of course they're dangerous. But why the big deal about NiMH? Nobody gives a shit about the Lead-Acid batteries you drive around with, or the moving firebomb called gasoline that you carry around by the dozens of gallons, or the hydraulic fluid powering your brakes, or the antifreeze cooling your engine. This is just another case of someone using something they don't know shit about to try to scare people.

Gee, the Media doesn't do that at all do they?

Maybe they should at least pretend to try what they're talking about before they publish nonsense.

 

Steve, thanks for the informative reply. So much better than scaremongering

I'm with you - the other questionable part in the original post quote was "After all, that's what happened with all-electric vehicles such as the General Motors EV1 that appeared in the late 1990s and failed to sell. "

What a crock. You see stuff like this and wonder what their real agenda is...

end oil dependency
bring them home
ride a bike
follow the sun

 

Wow. Could we get your take on Li-ion, too?
.
_H*

 

i have to agree with Steve,

it is pathetically comical to complain about a hundred pounds of anything (the traction battery AND that is the weight WITH the casing)

and at the same time ignore the several TONS of polution that is not generated by a hybrid.


*edit*

AND

you cant say a 50 mpg hybrid polutes half as much as a 25 mpg ICE because, the ICE when idling polutes at an exponentially high rate then when tooling at 60 mph down the freeway. for all intensive purposes, the Prius never has this problem

 

ok was reading the article and came across this passage

The amount of harmful emissions depends on your mileage, so it's possible that an individual's driving style could mean fewer greenhouse gas emissions in a gasoline-only Escape than that emitted from an Escape Hybrid whose driver always has the pedal to the metal.

after reading this part, i immediately realized i was wasting my time.

 

The Prius is the new "Miss America" so let's expect some criticism.

For most the economics don't add up unless you haul big miles. So what? Those who pay inflated premiums, drive little, and trade frequently are picking up the PR tab for Toyota and the hybrid community so the Prius buyers really deserve a pat on the back instead of a kick in the butt. (Maybe some free floor mats from Toyota, too.)

 

Great info on the batteries. My daughter does a class on MSDS for her company's new hires, and she starts with one for table salt. The name is blanked out, but she has the new hires read them and then ask if they are willing to work with that chemical in the lab (they are a biotech firm). These are college grads, mostly, and they proclaim with varying levels of enthusiasm that not only will they not work with it, but often say the government should ban it. Then she tells them its table salt, and shows them how to read a MSDS to see how dangerous the chemical really is. The joke MSDS on "dihydrogen oxide" is also pretty funny ... http://www.ndc.edu/sutheimer/dihydrogen%20oxide.htm

As to the question of comparing a Prius to its comparable non-hybrid model, most people tend to try and think of it as a Corrolla. I really think its closer to a Camry (actually, I like the interior and comfort better than a Camry). And the price compares pretty favorably to the Camry, especially considering the tax incentives.

 

Not sure, I'd have to look into Li-Ion... I'm sure that it's about the same kind of thing.

My point was that everything can be construed to be "highly toxic"... That's why you have to be able to objectively look at resources to make your determination of exactly how dangerous things are...

It's just like a radiation source.... depending on how long you're going to be near it, how well you're shielded, and how far you are away from it, you can practically stand on top of some radioactive sources and they won't hurt you...

Did you know that you can take an open container of VX and put it on a table in from of you and it won't hurt you one bit? VX is kind of like 3-in-1 oil, and it has a very low vapor pressure, meaning that it doesn't evaporate / emit fumes at a very high rate.

But, put VX on your skin or ingest it and you'll be deader faster than the brain of the idiot who wrote this article...

Just goes to show that while many things that are "highly toxic" are very, VERY dangerous, just as many things really aren't, except in very specific circumstances.

And as far as the Prius goes, the battery for the hybrid isn't really any more dangerous than a normal battery or anything else that we as firefighters or hazardous materials technicians deal with every day...

And frankly, I'd have a lot to say to any firefighter (officer or not) who called me out for a stupid hybrid battery.

 

Agreed, but we're not talking about a hundred pounds...

I'm not sure of exact amounts, but as far as I can tell from the description of the batteries (KOH paper sandwiched between nickel plates), we're maybe, MAYBE talking about 16 ounces of electrolyte in the whole battery....

Not going to end the world, and really not any bigger of a deal than a normal battery.

What would you do if you spilled a gallon bottle of drain cleaner (which is also KOH)...?

Call Homeland Security, the Police, and us (the Hazmat Team) to come clean it for you...?

No, you'd look at the bottle and see that you need to neutralize with vinegar or lemon juice, you'd do it, then you'd go to the hospital for any chemical burns you got. Not a big deal.

Any firefighter worth his gear, especially on a rescue rig, will know exactly how to handle a leaking Prius battery... and if you don't, you can always call the HazMat team and we will tell you what to do. It's really not that big a deal.

 

Yeah, wonder why the EV1 failed to sell...

Hydrogen fueling stations in your back yard?

 

Exactly...

Look how scary the MSDS for NaCl (Table Salt) is!!

 

I'm with joelparks (see his post above).....

Interesting article; however, there's one glaring error in Terry's comments:

(QUOTE)
What's to be done about recycling or disposal of those highly toxic battery packs when they wear out?
(END QUOTE)

The Prius Nickel-Metal Hydride traction battery is not "highly toxic" and is fully recycleable. Toyota also offers a "bounty" for return of an exhausted main battery. Terry seems to have failed to do complete homework on that comment. I cannot speak for other manufacturers' assist batteries.

As usual, misinformation abounds.

 

Steve, thanks for sharing your expertise with us.

You will be amused to know that in the world of preschool mommies, some adults confuse the designation "nontoxic" with "edible." It doesn't help that the manufacturers like to add fruit scent to art supplies for kids. I've heard mothers indicating that it doesn't matter if their kids eat large amounts of Play-Doh or drink the bubble blowing liquid or munch on crayons, because they're "nontoxic." Yeah, it won't kill them, but that doesn't mean it's a great idea to eat this stuff for mid-morning snack!

 

Glad to be able to contribute