Honda's New IMA Hybrid System - the Details are out!

From that article, it doesn't sound like it's as radical as being "a lot like" the current HSD to me. It sounds like it's still a parallel hybrid. But they've managed to improve lots of peripheral stuff to try to reduce the differences.

This includes adding the ability to move at low speed without ICE combustion (but the ICE still turns), and stopping combustion under deceleration. It may be that they've done something niftier than Toyota on the valve control to achieve that (I don't fully understand what the Prius ICE is capable of).

They've also reduced the amount of friction braking and added electric A/C - both changes similar to the ones Toyota made between the original THS and HSD.

 

Yeah, well until Honda decides give you the same amount of cabin/driver room as the Prius they can keep their new technology.

 

That 15kW motor is way too small for any realistic stealth driving. The electric-only drive will basically only be available for stop & slow conditions, not city cruising like Prius.

Also, consider the fact that there is a very limited amount of electricity available from the "assist" system. The single-motor, share-the-same-shaft arrangement with the engine simply cannot deliver what a dual-motor, split-power-device setup can.

 

At least at first glance: Very. Interesting.

Would very much like to know how far, and at what speeds, the HCH can run in electric motor only. I wonder how the new HCH electric motor / battery compare to the Prius Classic electric motor / battery.

Dumb question: they mention a new "hydraulic braking" system in the HCH. Is this anything like the "hydraulic hybrids" we read about a few months ago -- where a hydraulic system was used to get better regenerative energy capture from braking?

Anyway, glad to see Honda raising the bar -- either their bar, or the bar for ally hybrids. Which one remains to be seen; I look forward to an in-depth, side-by-side analysis article early in 2006!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bookrats\";p=\"104309)</div>

I see no mention of reducing smog-related emissions at all.

If the new system is only ULEV, they've still got some work to do. True competition is only achieved when both emissions & efficiency are improved, not just one or the other.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a\";p=\"104339)</div>

And capacity. For me if it can't match the 5 passenger and cargo area of the Prius, even if it does match the emissions and efficiency, it still falls short.

Like comparing a Prius to an Insight.

 

Amazingly, the Civic with a much more simplistic (and some here might say inferior) system to Toyota's gets mileage very close to Prius on GreenHybrid, though it's EPA and Reviews are lower. This new system might bridge the gap even closer.

John, aren't the current Civic & Accord hybrids sold in PZEV states certified PZEV? Considering many non-hybrid cars are sold PZEV, emissions seems to be a nonstarter for the new Civic, considering the current one can meet PZEV status.

Would be nice if Honda delivered them all "50 state emissions" anyway.

 

GreenHybrid intentionally misrepresents Civic-Hybrid. Combining the data of the Manual with the CVT is just plain wrong. It gives a false impression of getting better MPG. When in reality, the CVT gets less and the Manual is raising the average. And of course, most are not PZEV rated, which is known to get lower MPG.

Looking at real-world data in detail, you'll see that the ULEV CVT Civic-Hybrid gets slightly less MPG than the SULEV Classic Prius.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gschoen\";p=\"104351)</div>

There's no such thing as a PZEV Accord-Hybrid. It is only available as a ULEV in all 50 states.

In 5 states, the PZEV Civic-Hybrid is available as an option. It is not standard even there. ULEV is the only choice in the other 45.

Honda has not shown any interest in competing with the 50 state PZEV Prius. Hopefully, that will change with this new system. But today's detail certainly doesn't support that hope.

 

Let's see...

A smaller and lighter of the IMA which can run on electric only... and keep in mind IMA is already smaller and lighter than HSD.

Just about the same milage.

In a car that isn't swimming in miles and gallons of plastic.

With real instruments, meaning mostly, a proper fuel gauge.

Wow... color me impressed. If they have a hatch version, it's a Priusbeater for sure.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius\";p=\"104391)</div>

Yes, any mid or uplevel Civic has a *much* nicer interior than the Prius. They at least make an effort with the soft touch material. Toyota makes none with the Prius, except on the armrests. Everywhere else it's the hardest and really... cheapest... plastic I've seen outside of my old '88 Cavalier, but at least that had seats that weren't brought you by the spanish inquisition.

 

My first impression of their world class low emission ULEV LEV-2. Acura MDX V6 SUV can achieve it. What is so special about this hybrid?

The ICE now has a third mode which is basically Atkinson cycle. They were very carful not to use that word.

If the new electric motor is 1.5 times more powerful, how come it is still 15kW? I guess they were comparing it to Insight 10kW motor? How misleading.

Notice, electric mode is only low speed cruising. Acceleration is probably not possible with just the electric motor. My lawn mower has more power than this 15kW assist motor.

A huge part of the drivetrain is missing in the video that I saw. It is the transmission. There is probably no improvement in the transmission. I guess they will stick with belt, pulley and cone. How heavy is it now with the transmission? And how is the size compare to Prius HSD?

HSD can be made more compact and lighter with RX400h three shaft design by using Motor Speed Reduction planetary. According to Automotive Engineering magazine, RX400h hybrid transmission (P310) is about the same size as Prius transmission (P112) even though engine and motor power have more than doubled. The "transmission" weight difference is 240 lb(Prius) versus 276 lb (400h). Note, those weights include two MGs, Power Split Device, Motor Speed Reduction planetary, etc... Just try to imagine the next generation Prius.

Overall a better IMA but this just highlights how far ahead HSD is and THS was when it came out 8 years ago.

Dennis

 

The current Civic-Hybrid motor is only 10kW. Accord-Hybrid is 14kW. So the new one being 15kW could make things interesting... until you compare it to the 50kW in Prius.

Rumor is that the Cone & Belt CVT is being dropped in favor of a traditional automatic transmission.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a\";p=\"104412)</div>

This would be surprising since I thought Honda was quite proud to have produced the first CVT of modern times (1996) derived from their F1 work where the CVT gives performance and efficiency nearly equivalent to manual; unless this was just an economics choice.

What would not using the CVT mean? There are design flaws, or just to make the Hybrid more affordable?

 

A goal with Honda's new model is to increase power & reliability of their current transmission. An automatic transmission fulfills that goal... hence the rumor.

It's a less efficient choice, but with the improved efficiency of the new engine no one will notice anyway.