Honda Lost a Customer

Hydrogen (H2) is not a fuel but simply an energy carrier, just like electricity. The electricity needs to be stored in a battery and H2 needs to be compressed into a storage tanks. H2 can be directly transformed from natural gas, chemical or biological methods or simply from electricity.

Fuel cell vehicles are electric cars. They can also be classified as hybrids as they run on both H2 and battery. The bottom line is they run on electricity. You can think of it as a Prius without gas engine but instead with a FC stack. If the Chevy Volt were to have FC stack for the range extender, it will be a plugin fuel cell hybrid.

Fuel cell vehicles have been over-promised and under-delivered (none-delivered in fact), for the past 15 years. However in the past 5 years, many breakthroughs had been achieved. They can now operate under freezing temps. The durability of the FC stack has been increased. The cost has been reduced by 90% and projecting another 90% cost cut in 5 years. The weight and volume (space) have been cut and the range has been extended to the point Lithium BEV can not achieve.

H2 infrastructure is a huge barrier since there is none exists.

 

Yes, more people lost a honda car ..

 

A minor quibble: Hydrogen *is* a fuel, but on the Earth it must be reduced from some combined state before it can be burned or used in a fuel cell. The energy costs involved in this reduction are close to the energy that can be obtained from the freed hydrogen. Because of this, hydrogen for fuel use is *effectively* an energy carrier.

Tom

 

Tom,

I don't know the energy required to create hydrogen but we know the CO2 output generated by it.

According to Toyota, CO2 output created to run Highlander SUV size FCHV is less than CO2 come out of Prius tail pipe. Using natural gas to create hydrogen looks good to me. Their future projection looks even better.

 

I don't think that's quite a fair piece.

First of all, almost any auto manufacturer that doesn't have an electric vehicle directly in the pipeline is going to be very hesitant about coming out making statements of support for a product they don't offer. With Honda's IMA Hybrids, Civic and Insight, and with plans for a Honda Fit Hybrid, along with a limited availability natural gas Civic, and the commitment to the development of the Hydrogen powered FCX Clarity would you expect any Honda representitive to come out and champion a product they don't currently have in the pipeline? It's just not done, unless you want to lose your job.

"We are definitely conducting research on electric cars, but I can't say I can wholeheartedly recommend them," Honda's president of research and development Tomohiko Kawanabe said recently. "It's questionable whether consumers will accept the annoyances of limited driving range and having to spend time charging them."

What's wrong with that response? Supporters of Electric Cars might not like the part where he says he can't wholeheartedly recommend them but again what would you expect a competitor of Nissan and a company that doesn't have a full electric in the pipeline to say? Plus I do think the realities of driving range and charging time and consumer acceptance will have to be tested and revealed.

The assumption the author unfairly IMO makes is that Honda believes not enough people are interested in electric cars. Given Honda along with Toyota were pioneers in mainstreaming acceptance of alternative automotive technology with the Insight and the Prius respectively, attacking Honda because they aren't immediately offering the product the author wishes they offered is IMO ignoring the fact that without the efforts of Honda and Toyota I sincerely doubt you would have the launch of The Leaf by Nissan. Ford, Nissan, Hyundai and the entire wave of using new technology to offer alternative or more economical vehicles owes a debt to Honda and Toyota for the work they did in pioneering mainstream acceptance of something available at a local mainstream dealership that wasn't just an ICE driven vehicle. Just because Honda doesn't have an electric in the works, and has questions about the commercial viability of a full electric doesn't mean to me that Honda is deserving of scorn.

Plus I think with IMA, Hydrogen and Natural Gas, it's clear that Honda hasn't put all their eggs in one basket. Maybe they haven't chosen the basket the author of the article would like at the moment, but to suggest that Honda is unwilling or hesitant to offer alternative products is ignoring the history of Honda.

I thought it interesting that recently Mazda licenced Hybrid technology from Toyota. For years Mazda's company line was anti-hybrid. With statements that they would not produce one, or had no plans to produce one because they just couldn't be made "fun enough". Well due to the success of Prius, Toyota, and Honda who did Mazda eventually Zoom Zoom to? Toyota.

Anyway, I give credit to all automakers involved. Primarily Honda and Toyota as mainstream automakers that first brought alternative commercially available products to common dealership floors. I give credit now to Nissan, and the Leaf.

To be honest, "Prius Chat" isn't the normal mainstream enviroment. A lot of posters in here having been desiring pure electrics or PHV's for a long time. But this crowd I think has always been ahead of the curve...and still is. But as automakers Honda has to be mindful of mundane realities such as budget, what investment into what technologies have already been made, and things like mainstream consumer acceptance and commercial viability.

So anyway, I don't think it fair to fault Honda, or Toyota for not immediately competing with Nissan and jumping in the pure electric arena. Would you? Why not let Nissan take the point? See how much success The Leaf IS able or unable to garner. Sure, you could say it's conservative, but as far as the history of Honda and Toyota respectively they don't deserve to be scorned for not immediately offering a pure electric alternative...they should be applauded for being among the first to realize that Hybrids could be embraced, and that there was a market for transportation that wasn't fully petrol fuel based.

This author wants a full electric...as many here in Prius Chat do, and that's fine. But taking shots at either Honda or Toyota for not having that product yet, is imo not fair.

 

I don't think Honda is creating hydrogen.

 

They have solar stations to create Hydrogen for the Clarity. They are mad expensive and probably won't be as efficient as BEV in term of well-to-wheel.

Natural gas to H2 seems to make the most sense.