Honda killing the Accord Hybrid

Two roads diverged in the woods.

And I took the one less traveled.

And that has made all of the difference.

I guess Honda has chosen a different direction than Toyota. First the Insight, now the Hybrid Accord.

Toyota is expanding it's hybrid line with I'm sure the goal of eventually going all hybrid, then staring to offer EVs, then an EV line.

Where will the rest be then?

I wonder what Honda's long term plan is 20 years and 100 years into the future.

I think I know where Toyota plans to be.

I wonder which road will end up being less traveled and who will be left by the wayside?

 

I read about Honda's new diesel.
From what I gather, it's got a new type of exhaust that helps makes it super clean.
If only the engine would shut down at stop lights , it would be near perfect.
The turbo diesel gets great fuel economy all the time despite the weather or terrain too.
I work with a fellow who consistantly gets 50 mpg from his Tdi beetle. And I really considered getting a Tdi Jetta but the Prius is so much cleaner. But now, my next car may just be Diesel.

 

obviously honda has hit an obstacle in their hybrid development that Toyota has not yet encountered. Toyota seems to be pushing hybrids into ever increasingly larger and more powerful vehicles when it looks as if honda has abandoned the project.

it makes what Toyota is doing even more impressive.

 

Diesels seem very popular in Europe, and I guess if bio-diesel can be made out of vegetable oil, then that's another alternative fuel source. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

 

Honda is not alone with diesel power.
Toyota has made many fine diesel engines and has put together diesel hybrids.
I think Toyota is way ahead of the learning curve of some of the other auto makers.

 

well i always felt that honda had never jumped into the hybrid game as deeply as Toyota did. i was encouraged by the progress made with the new HCH and hoped for better, but at the same time, i have to question their marketing approach to the insight...

i think they feel that Toyota is beating them badly and they appear to be bowing out except with what they know they can do very well. honda has always had a limited product line in the US. look at how long it took them to get a pickup here... well... if you consider the ridgeline a pickup

 

Its amazing that Honda sees these two technologies as competing - they compliment each other. A Hybrid diesel would be absolutely amazing in the efficiency department. I suspect it will be Toyota, not Honda, who delivers this option to consumers. I can imagine a Prius-sized vehicle that gets 80 MPG as a hybrid diesel...

 

I gather that most folks here believe Honda made a mistake with their hybrid technology and hence hit a road block. :lol:
With all due respect, that is naive thinking at best.

I can assure that, that is not the case. Honda has always been very forthcoming with their technology plans and they have never failed to deliver on them. What they are now doing in terms of R&D in automotive hybrid technologies is public knowledge and consistent with their very long history of fighting for the cause that many in this board like to trumpet (longer than Toyota).

Just to re-iterate (especially for those who like to assume) Honda has always stated that:
- Diesel power is best suited for larger vehicles.
- Hybrid technology is more effective for smaller vehicles.
- The two above will be critical to its future product line-ups
- Ultimately, hydrogen powered vehicles will at some point draw on some of the above as well.

Honda is not giving up the "Hybrid race". Last year, before they decommissioned the insight, they annouced that a unique hybrid platform would be introduced that may even best the Insight's mileage while being cheaper than an HCH-2. What does that mean to most of us? Think... Think...

They know that hybrid technologies do not represent a final state but merely an intermediate but necessary step. Even Toyota knows that. So, they have developed a fine (and very lean) system with their IMA and now they are proceeding to the obvious technologies that will eventually increase its IP portfolio. I would like to see Toyota producing a Diesel-hybrid one day, but it was not too long ago that they dismissed that idea.

Honda in the other hand has been playing the Diesel card expertly with eye popping results. I believe (and so do most who follow Honda closely) Honda now possesses the technology to align its Clean Diesel technologies with IMA faster than anyone else can (including Toyota). In fact Toyota had to align itself with a long time Japanese Diesel manufacturer in order to improve its odds a little.

Honda always was and will always continue to be an engineering company and they excel at that - that is why they are the largest ICE manufacturer in the world. They flounder at marketing which is a trait their main competitors - including Toyota - are best at. But in the end, they are the only manufacturer who is quietly and expertly building a portfolio of technologies they can call their own. I believe Honda will not only be the first to show how to build a clean and dependable diesel but they will also show their legendary engineering prowess by introducing a fuel cell vehicle (FCX in 2008) before anyone else.

Only time will tell, but because their past achievements speak for themselves, I would certainly bet on them first. The problem is that some folks here are just too blind to anything that is not Prius or HSD... and that is OK, but I think we can be a little wiser and smarter than that.

One last thought: Honda and Toyota need each other. Being adversaries as they are is like a symbiotic relationship that ensures their survival. It keeps the competition alive and ensures that progress is made at a faster pace. At that, I believe, is good for us all.


Cheers;

MSantos

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(KB0OU @ Jan 5 2007, 08:53 PM) [snapback]371652[/snapback]</div>

Speaking of which, it looks like Volkswagen will be beating Honda by one year on the super-clean diesel engine. Here's the latest press release from Volkswagen:

VOLKSWAGEN UNVEILED THE CLEANEST EVER TDI ENGINE

A VW Jetta TDI fulfils the most stringent worldwide exhaust gas thresholds with its nitrogen oxide post-treatment system developed by Volkswagen. The USA market launch within the BlueTec alliance is planned for 2008

Wolfsburg - Volkswagen unveiled the cleanest ever TDI engine. First test drives demonstrate the high potential of Volkswagen technology, which consequently reduce nitrogen oxide. In the VW Jetta a new 2.0 litre Common Rail diesel engine with a nitrogen oxide reservoir catalytic converter was used, which complies to the Californian emission standard “Tier 2 / Bin 5â€. These requirements are considered the most stringent worldwide. The first production run of the “Clean TDI†with nitrogen oxide post-treatment system will be made during 2008 in the USA.

The central theme of the entire concept is the reduction of nitrogen oxide. The engineers in Wolfsburg reached this goal through internal development of the motor and the use of new emission post-treatment technology. The result: up to 90% less nitrogen oxide emissions (NOx).

This drastic reduction was necessary in order to comply with the “Tier 2 / Bin 5†norm, which applies to California and four other states in the north-east of America (Massachusetts, New York, Vermont and Maine). This norm limits nitrogen oxide emissions to 70 mg per mile. In order to comply with this standard, completely new emission ­ treatment technology was necessary. Volkswagen has thus developed two systems connected to the oxidation catalytic converter and the particle filter in the exhaust system.

New NOx reservoir catalytic converter technology is currently being tested for car models below the Passat class. Nitrogen oxide is ab­sorbed like a sponge, leading to a high level of efficiency. As with the particle filter, the system is regularly cleaned without the driver noticing. To do this, the engine management system changes operation modes for a few seconds.

Larger and heavier models feature the Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) catalytic converter. The central element is an aqueous solution such as AdBlue, which is transported in an additional tank made from stainless steel or plastic. 32.5% of this solution is comprised of urea, and is continuously injected into the exhaust system in front of the SCR catalytic converter using a metering valve. The dosage is made according to the gas emission stream.

The urea solution is finely atomised by a grille and is converted in hot exhaust gas into ammonia before it reaches the catalytic converter. The ammonia then reacts with the nitrogen oxide in the catalytic converter and separates it into nitrogen and water. Unlike pure ammonia, AdBlue solution is non-toxic, odourless and biodegradable. Volkswagen intends to install the additional tank so that the car can be driven without main­tenance between two garage inspections - the garage simply refills the tank at the next scheduled inspection date. According to American regulations, the complete system must be fully functional for at least 150,000 ­miles.

BlueTec is a joint project of the German car manufacturers Volkswagen, Audi and DaimlerChrysler, intended to establish the diesel engine further in the American car market. The manufacturers are convinced that the diesel motor is the clean, low-consumption alternative for future car use, which is backed up by current economic and political condi­tions. Each of the manufacturers involved in the BlueTec joint project is working on individual technical solutions for stringent exhaust gas emission standards and plans to market these independently.

Volkswagen is definitely the diesel pioneer in the USA – more than 800,000 diesel cars from Volkswagen have already been sold there.

 

Good for Volkswagen. They certainly have been at it long enough.

Even better if they can stop being bottom feeders in the quality and reliability department. Otherwise they're are hardly competition for the likes of Honda. Then there's the issue of Bluetec which needs to be replenished regularly to ensure a cleaner exhaust - we need to see how that plays out in terms of regulatory restrictions and so on.

Unlike Bluetec, Honda's Clean Diesel system is an exercise in elegant simplicity. But nevertheless, it should be fun to compare the two at a later date when we have actual vehicles to compare. By that time Volkswagen better be in good shape (maybe they should take a page from the Korean's book) otherwise it wont be pretty.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

Volkswagen seems to have a clean diesel image in the US. Over here, we know better. About 40% of all new cars here are diesel powered and the soot or fine particles they produce are a major problem. Building projects for new homes have been stopped or put on hold because of high particle levels in the area. The extremely fine dust can cause cancer, it seems to find its way deep into the lungs.

So what are car manufacturers doing about it? Peugot was one of the first to offer particle filters as standard equipment on all their diesels, even before they became mandatory. Volkswagen waited until they became mandatory. Volkswagen FSI (gasoline) engines actually produce more (sorry, Dutch research, in Dutch) of the finest, most harmful particles than a diesel truck.

Toyota, meanwhile, have been delivering their clean diesel D-CAT technology here for years, in the Avensis first, but now in the Corolla too. Notice section 5.2.6, page 111 of this research paper: (Europe) "First early mover Toyota, followed by the rest". German manufacturers (including VW), realizing they were behind, launced a FUD campaign to scare potential buyers away from the technology.

And Volkswagen? They've managed to become nr. one on the European Federation for Transport and Environment worst performing car makers in reducing emmissions.

VW are still not delivering particle filters as standard on most of their cars here, you have to pay extra for them. Compare that to what other manufacturers are doing (in Dutch again, but you can probably make sense of it anyhow).

While VW are bragging about their new clean diesel, Toyota is introducing the next generation of their Avensis here. And VW is wisely not saying anything about their "new" invention here in Europe, where additive based emmission control as been around for a while and may become mandatory, at least for trucks (Euro VI).

My point: try not to be blinded by that clean diesel image VW has carefully built in the US.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jan 6 2007, 04:11 AM) [snapback]371701[/snapback]</div>

You are certainly free to think so. Because, in the end I believe few conversations such as these will ever have any impact on the final outcome. In any case, why don't we just ride this one out and watch? We can review it all again later. Deal ?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jan 6 2007, 04:11 AM) [snapback]371701[/snapback]</div>

I follow press releases and engineering journals. You can subscribe for some of these with each manufacturer. You can also find this info at EVWorld, GreenCarCongress and a few others with a little search.
Also, I did not say it. I merely re-iterated what Honda has been saying all along. That is their strategy and so far it is unfolding as they had planned.
To make matters easy for those of us who want to learn a little more please go here. Its an OK starting point:

http://world.honda.com/worldnews/

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jan 6 2007, 04:11 AM) [snapback]371701[/snapback]</div>

Neither Honda nor Toyota are GM. Can we at least agree on that. If you or anybody want to make a case for credibility which of the three do you NOT want to have on your side? I presume GM, because they've been failing miserably and consistently at that. I would rather have Honda because of the three thay are the most consistent.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jan 6 2007, 04:11 AM) [snapback]371701[/snapback]</div>

I too have full confidence that Toyota will make whatever changes it deems required to succeed in adherence to its main corporate philosophy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jan 6 2007, 04:11 AM) [snapback]371701[/snapback]</div>

Most manufacturers agree that there isn't one single technology that will succeed on its own. But people are the ones that start defining alegiances to a technology and bias against others. However, the manufacturer that best utilizes its IP portfolio is the one most likely to succeed better. Agreed?


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jan 6 2007, 04:11 AM) [snapback]371701[/snapback]</div>

I will fight just as ardently for Toyota when I am surrounded by ignorant Honda fanboys (and girls). I follow both companies very carefully because that is where I bet my money. And as an engineer I like recognize and identify with good and responsible technology that can make this world a better place. I also feel obligated to set records straight when I see and hear stuff that is helpful to nobody particularly in a setting such as this and others like this. It just so happens that both companies have a fascinating history that says much of their future and ours. It is even more fascinating to take a step back from our daily bias and see them for what they really are.
I love my Prius a lot but I love my HCH-2 just as much. I do not see either being better that the other because they have more non-competing attributes than they have similarities. Owning both gives me that perspective where I do not favor one because of my ignorance of the other. I also do the same for each company.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jan 6 2007, 04:11 AM) [snapback]371701[/snapback]</div>

Honda will be down to a single Hybrid on a very temporary basis. They've already explained that and how that fits into their long standing strategy. They have also explained that they have production capacity limits to overcome but they are not Toyota (at least in size) to overcome them as quickly as Toyota can. As a smaller Japanaese manufacturer they are typically very careful and aware of the impact quick manufacturing ramp-ups have on quality. Please take Toyota as an example.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jan 6 2007, 04:11 AM) [snapback]371701[/snapback]</div>

AMEN


Cheers;

MSantos

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jan 5 2007, 09:46 PM) [snapback]371613[/snapback]</div>

Godiva:: That's just wonderful!! My thoughts exactly
(turbodiesel smurbodiesel, its still gas) and yes, the Accord Hybrid was a real waste, I'm sorry to say. I could have been a direct competitor to the Camry Hy.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Rangerdavid @ Jan 6 2007, 09:37 AM) [snapback]371730[/snapback]</div>

By the same token, you could be saying the Lexus "performance hybrids" are also a real waste. Oh wait a minute, I see a lot of selective "evidence" at work here.

The Accord had a role: To demonstrate, that its hybrid technology is flexible and an important step towards the future. This also helped Toyota at least indirectly. At a time when hybrids were fighting for acceptance they were being denied a spotlight for a whole range of vehicle classes and hence dismissed as wimpy and underpowered vehicles.
By producing the Accord Hybrid, Honda was out to prove that hybrids can not only outperform a gas only vehicle but also consume less than a similar gas-only vehicle with a smaller engine.
Honda never produced the Accord Hybrid to compete with the camry hybrid, unless for the sake of convenience you want to tamper with the timelines. Gee...


Cheers;

MSantos