GM's Plug-In Push

Here is the major news from that article:

"Toyota, too, has been working with nano-phosphate as a hedge, but on a slower track than its cobalt-oxide program, which was in a joint-development project with Panasonic. And GM is working with cobalt-oxide on a slower track for the same reason. But GM's nano-phosphate development is, according to supplier company sources working with Toyota, at least a year ahead of Toyota's. "All hell has been breaking loose at Toyota on its plug-in program for the last three months as it changes horses," says one supplier company executive working with Toyota."

This suggests that Toyota ARE working on nano-phosphate and as I've said repeatedly on here, they are at last seeing sense and changing over from unsafe/expensive cobalt to safe/long-life phosphate batteries asap!

This could still be a two-horse race! B)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Nov 22 2007, 11:15 PM) [snapback]543149[/snapback]</div>

I'll believe it when I see it. Three years is plenty of time to find a new excuse. Or to decide that the Volt "cannot" come out without some new as-yet-unready technology.

If they really wanted to leapfrog Toyota with a PHEV, they could build the Volt today with NiMH, and then introduce a new improved model with nano phosphate when that's ready. Or they could build the EV-1 again but with a small range-extending engine. You don't need lithium to build a PHEV. The only thing you really need lithium for is as an excuse for not building a PHEV. It's a pretty poor excuse, but the public is gullible. If they'll believe that a fuel-cell vehicle can run on air (because "hydrogen is abundant in the air") then they'll believe that improved lithium technology is a necessity for a PHEV.

 

A design compromise I hadn't been aware of until recently is that the battery-pack for Volt will be liquid cooled. Toyota prefers to avoid needs like that.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Nov 23 2007, 12:03 PM) [snapback]543232[/snapback]</div>

John, love the FUD. Toyota prefers to avoid needs like that... giggle. How about the thermos, the massive farting fan, and so on? And do you know what the liquid cooling installation will look like? Is it going to be big, small? Will it be intrusive? If it's going to fit into their malibu mules by easter, I doubt it's that big.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Nov 23 2007, 11:10 AM) [snapback]543217[/snapback]</div>

I agree.

Of course, while they're trying to leapfrog Toyota with the Volt, Toyota is probably looking at a pure EV, which they'll have on the market before GM offers any other kind of EV, thus leaping GM's frog. Who is going to care about the Volt when you have your choice of either a (plug-in) hybrid Prius or the Toyota EV? Whether that is before or after introduction of whatever Volt GM manages to get in a showroom won't really matter.

Hindsight is 20-20 and GM should have continued the EV and continued to improve it AND start selling instead of leasing. Then they wouldn't need the Volt. They'd be #1 already. They'd have the EV-2 on the road now and be introducing the EV-3 in 2010.

And I'd have an EV-2 in my garage instead of a Prius.

Schmucks.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Nov 23 2007, 01:15 PM) [snapback]543258[/snapback]</div>

Why didn't Toyota do the same with the Rav4-EV?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 23 2007, 01:24 PM) [snapback]543262[/snapback]</div>

Good point.

To their credit they actually did sell some.

And I'll bet what they learned from the Rav4-EV hasn't been lost and was never abandoned. I'll bet it's being worked into the future EV. Which is why I think Toyota will beat GM to the market with an EV because GM is busy putzing around with their Volt while Toyota is leapfrogging them to an EV.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 23 2007, 11:58 AM) [snapback]543253[/snapback]</div>

You're attempt to bash won't change the history, nor the fact that this wasn't revealed until recently.

It also won't change the reality that liquid cooling adds weight, consumes space, and raises price.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Nov 23 2007, 01:39 PM) [snapback]543271[/snapback]</div>

Toyota's announced nothing about a future EV. John is right in pointing out that GM is being very transparent about the process. GM has even gone so far as to say the volt powertrain is going to be on the road and drivable by Easter.

Toyota, meanwhile, seems to have no clue as to what's going on. Bladders, outdated batteries, quality issues.. It's quite the role reversal.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 23 2007, 03:24 PM) [snapback]543262[/snapback]</div>

Hi Johnycat,

Maybe Toyota will be able to do that now. There is a company in Colorado, of which it is said they have broken the Cobasys NiMH patent with different NiMH battery technology. Time will tell if its as good.

The reason GM did not do it, is they sold away the rights to a company that did not have GM's future profits as a common goal, rather, its own oil proffits as its primary goal . Rick Wagoner's "Worse Decision" by his own admission.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(donee @ Nov 23 2007, 01:43 PM) [snapback]543277[/snapback]</div>

Great, 'time will tell'. Meanwhile, GM has the Cobasys NiMH batteries today, and is charging forward today. Toyota has shown no signs of moving away from Panasonic, who by their own admission are having troubles with moving to a next gen battery.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 23 2007, 01:43 PM) [snapback]543275[/snapback]</div>

Never said they did.

Unlike GM, Toyota doesn't announce everything.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Nov 23 2007, 02:00 PM) [snapback]543283[/snapback]</div>

yup talk is cheap,

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Nov 23 2007, 02:00 PM) [snapback]543283[/snapback]</div>

No, you're right and wrong.

Toyota has 2 cars that achieve a PZEV rating, and everyone and their uncle knows it.

At last count, GM had 8 (!) cars that achieve a PZEV rating, and GM doesn't feel the need to whore themselves to the press over it.

So good on GM, and what a bunch of PR whores the Toyota folks are.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Nov 23 2007, 10:15 AM) [snapback]543258[/snapback]</div>

I wish! Unfortunately, all the major automakers seem wedded to the internal combustion engine. We really have no reason to believe Toyota may be working on an EV. It's just wishful thinking.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Nov 23 2007, 10:15 AM) [snapback]543258[/snapback]</div>

Actually, the Volt concept would be the better choice, since in one vehicle you'd have a pure EV for the first 40 miles (most people's daily driving) as well as a car for road trips. A Pure EV cannot do the long road trips, and a plug-in Prius must burn gas for every trip, even while it's getting half its energy from grid electricity.

Full hybrid was a colossal leap over conventional automobile technology, but series hybrid with sufficient battery capacity for daily driving on pure electric would be an equally-great leap past full hybrid. Cal-Cars' Prius-Plus is a big improvement over the Prius, but series PHEV hybrid would be a qualitative advance.

I don't believe GM has any intention of marketing the Volt. But I desperately hope I'm wrong, and if I am wrong, and if they are first to market, I'll buy one.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Nov 23 2007, 01:46 PM) [snapback]543312[/snapback]</div>

That's the catch. GM can push Volt as a technological advance all they want, but it won't change the reality of economics. They have the very same problem as the augmented Prius. It's simply too expensive.

Fortunately, selling a profitable plug-in "MPG BOOST" model of Prius is realistic... though the market could have a hard time understanding the difference between it and an electric-only range.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Nov 23 2007, 10:43 AM) [snapback]543275[/snapback]</div>

As usual, more shilling for GM and Toyota bashing... the bladders are part of the Prius. Outdated batteries, well, show me a GM vehicle available to consumers that has a more advanced one. Toyota has been shipping the a smaller # of Vitzes in Japan w/li-ion batteries since 03 (http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_7376536?source=rss&nclick_check=1). As for "quality issues", GM still makes a TON of unreliable vehicles and a TON more vehicles w/poorer reliability than Toyotas and Lexuses. The vast majority of Toyotas and Lexus have better than average reliability whereas the majority of GMs are in the average or worse than average bucket.

Per http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/pr...rview/index.htm
"Overall, Asian models still dominate in reliability, accounting for 34 of the 39 models in the Most reliable new car list. Thirty-one are Japanese and three are South Korean.

Despite Toyota's problems, the automaker still ranks third overall in reliability, behind only Honda and Subaru, with 17 models in the best list. Honda has seven with a smaller model lineup.

Only four domestic models made the Most reliable list: the Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan, Pontiac Vibe, and the two-wheel-drive Ford F-150 with the V6 engine. U.S. makes, however, account for almost half the models--20 of 44--on the Least reliable list. There are 13 from GM, 6 from Chrysler, and 1 from Ford.

European makes account for 17 models on the Least reliable list. This includes six each from Mercedes-Benz and Volkswagen/Audi."

The Vibe hardly even counts since it's a twin of the Toyota Matrix, based on the Corolla, jointly developed by GM and Toyota and built at the Fremont, CA NUMMI plant.

Looking at http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/cars/pr...le-new-cars.htm (you'll need a subscription), I see
Toyotas in most reliable column: 12
Scions in most reliable column: 2
Lexuses in most reliable column: 3
GMs in most reliable column: "1"

Toyotas in least reliable column: 1
Scions in least reliable column: 0
Lexus in least reliable column: 0
GMs in least reliable column: 13

Even some of the ones that didn't make the least reliable column have awful reliability, like the Pontiac Solstice.