GM's Bob Lutz: "Not All Eggs in Hydrogen Basket"

Wow,

that some remarkable words from GM. Maybe they can become young and hot again?

 

One thing that occured to me - everyone talks about hydrogen vehicles, and how they're going to be the future... ok, i can buy the idea that they solve some problems. of course, one of the big problems to this (as alluded to in that article) is the distribution infrastructure - it simply isn't there for something like this, and will probably take a while to get into place.

Why haven't i heard anyone talking about working on a hybrid hydrogren vehicle? something that has the fuel cells to drive on pure electric propulsion, but also has a gas engine? that would give the distribution network plenty of time to get into place before switching over to full hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. It seems to me that, as he hinted at, the source of the energy (batteries VS hydrogen) doesn't matter... one should be able to, in a good design, be swapped out for the other. Which just makes me wonder if we won't at some point see hydrogren conversion companies that replace the batteries with hydrogen fuel cells the same way we see the plug in conversion companies today...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Sep 29 2006, 02:33 PM) [snapback]325670[/snapback]</div>

One thing that GM and Honda have their eyes on when they talk about Hydrogen is China...

There isn't much of a distribution infrastructure there to begin with. Won't be expensive to build up a hydrogen infrastructure as opposed to a petroleum infrastructure.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(clett @ Sep 29 2006, 09:42 AM) [snapback]325534[/snapback]</div>

Pssst... Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles are "electric-drive vehicles". Hence the second half of his sentence that you didn't include...

When he talks about "the nature of the power source or sources", don't think Coal/Natural Gas/Nuclear; think Battery/Hydrogen Fuel Cell.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Sep 29 2006, 11:33 AM) [snapback]325670[/snapback]</div>

I dare you to name one. Not even the FCV proponents can figure out what problems a FCV will "solve" (at least in relation to BEVs or hybrids). Well, honestly, I can think of one... but I'm looking for an item that FCVs will solve BETTER than any other option.

I can tell you with some confidence that this very company - that literally and loudly laughed at hybrids just a few short years ago as not being "anything that American drivers would want"- is now pulling out all the stops to be the first in the game with a PHEV.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Sep 29 2006, 11:33 AM) [snapback]325670[/snapback]</div>

Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota ... all theoretically working on FCVs. GM is supposed to have 100 on the road next year.

I'm guessing that there won't be much of a market for a $1million slow gasoline car... if the FC stack can't even be used, and the thing is only driven on gasoline the car will be more efficient... but I'm still not sure it'll sell.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Sep 29 2006, 07:50 PM) [snapback]325837[/snapback]</div>

I saved a bunch of their "stop gap" articles, so later, I could have the last laugh.

They mocked hybrids, calling them a waste of resources. And still today they are pushing hydrogen... which has yet to reveal a benefit. Without a clear goal, their efforts are a waste. What the heck will a fuel-cell deliver that a "full" hybrid platform cannot?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Sep 29 2006, 09:41 PM) [snapback]325867[/snapback]</div>

A clean car that doesn't require any petroleum?

You knew that tho.

 

john1701a has chosen to ignore all posts from: Jonnycat26

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Sep 29 2006, 10:01 PM) [snapback]325878[/snapback]</div>

Typical... it's a good point, you have no retort, so you go sulk. At least it's fairly obvious that you've got nothing to add.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Sep 29 2006, 09:49 PM) [snapback]325873[/snapback]</div>

Maybe in Iceland. Highly unlikely anywhere else. All depends how the hydrogen is made.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(hyo silver @ Sep 29 2006, 11:39 PM) [snapback]325910[/snapback]</div>

Well, it could be made by nuclear power. And let's face it, nuclear power is much cleaner than coal. If I had to guess, I'd say the future is going to be a mix of Hydrogen Electric and pure Electric Vehicles.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Sep 29 2006, 11:49 PM) [snapback]325911[/snapback]</div>

Well I certainly hope they find a way to get me a "hyrdrogen" car that works when it's -10 degrees out here, and I have an 25 foot icicle hanging out of my tailpipe.....

Oh, and you'll have to remind me why Electric cars wouldn't do just what you're describing?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Sep 29 2006, 11:49 PM) [snapback]325911[/snapback]</div>

Nuclear? Oh man, let's not go through that again. "Cleaner than coal" isn't saying much. We could burn leftover lead paint and it would be cleaner than coal. No matter how the electricity is generated, it's better to put it straight into batteries than to make hydrogen. To be charitable, I'll say you're half right. Skip the hydrogen part, and go with electric.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sl7vk @ Sep 29 2006, 11:54 PM) [snapback]325912[/snapback]</div>

How quickly can I charge an electric car? Are they going to be able to make electric powered tractor trailers? Electric school busses? Why do you think Diesel is still popular... it sure isn't just because of the small number of cars that run on Diesel.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Sep 29 2006, 07:50 PM) [snapback]325837[/snapback]</div>

Not much needs to be said beyond that.

The "full" hybrid platform will continue to advance. The engine will get smaller, as well as support ethanol more. Electricity use will increase substantially. Operation will get even cleaner.

How in the world a fuel-cell vehicle will compete with that is a total mystery.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Sep 29 2006, 09:47 PM) [snapback]325929[/snapback]</div>

ISE Corporation, where I work, has made several hybrid busses and a few tractor trailers. We've even made some military hybrids. Largely gas/electric, but also diesel/electric, HICE/electric (Hydrogen ICE) and some fuel cell busses. Depends on what the customer wants.

On our lot is a full electric truck we did for Sparkletts Water. The license plates are something Darell would like...PLUGDIN.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Sep 30 2006, 12:47 AM) [snapback]325929[/snapback]</div>

I imagine that there is a lot less that stands in our way of a 5 minute charging station for an electric car then there is getting Hydrogen off the ground.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sl7vk @ Sep 30 2006, 09:07 AM) [snapback]326033[/snapback]</div>

Indeed. There is NOTHING in our way of a 15-minute 250-mile charge today. Nothing. The technology exists, the energy exists. The batteries exist. But it costs lots of money. Up to maybe 1/10th of what a FCV would cost - so it is WAY too much.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Sep 29 2006, 06:41 PM) [snapback]325867[/snapback]</div>

If you have any of that electronically, I've love to see it. I know a few others who are compiling the same info. Would likely be good to share.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Sep 29 2006, 06:49 PM) [snapback]325873[/snapback]</div>

If this is an answer to my "dare" above, please note the caveat regarding doing anything *better* than any other transportation solution. Yes, a FCV could be drven clean with no petroleum... yet a BEV can be driven just as clean for less than 1/10th the cost of building the vehicle, and by only using 1/4 of the "clean" energy.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(sl7vk @ Sep 29 2006, 08:54 PM) [snapback]325912[/snapback]</div>

Quite possible today... you'll just have to use quite a bit more energy just to keep the exhaust warm.

They would... except with better performance, lower build cost, significantly better efficiency, lower fuel cost and ease of refueling. Other than that, they're like... identical!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Sep 29 2006, 09:47 PM) [snapback]325929[/snapback]</div>

Does this include finding an outlet vs. finding a Hydrogen station? With 300-mile range BEVs, the times when speed of charging is an issue are few and far between. And even so, quick recharge time is not something that still needs to be invented. An infrastructure for fast BEV chargers would cost hundreds of millions of dollars. Infrastructure for H2 filling stations would cost trillions.

Easier than making them hydrogen powered, yes... though lets not forget that hydrogen vehicles ARE electric vehicles... and are electrically powered. Just with a few more lossy steps inbetween. In the short term the best way to power large vehicles (trucks, planes, etc) is with hybrid propulsion. We still have a need for liquid fuel. Doesn't mean we should be using it for the applications that do NOT require it.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a @ Sep 30 2006, 07:29 AM) [snapback]326002[/snapback]</div>

It simply can't. It can't compete on price, availability, current technology, range, cleanliness, efficiency.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aaf709 @ Sep 30 2006, 07:41 AM) [snapback]326005[/snapback]</div>

Cool. B)