GM Plans Hybrid Malibu For '07

the ghost of the 1980's GM diesels still scares me. if they do the same hatchet job on hybrids, it could wreck the whole market.

though i guess their overall market share is down a lot since then, so maybe they couldn't scare the whole country away from hybrids like they did with the diesels.

 

variable displacement, shades of the old Caddi 4-6-8 V8 that was a nighmare for the tech's trying to keep them running. You think the diesel fiasco was bad, that was way worse.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Frank Hudon\";p=\"45487)</div>

true except that GM was the only one that really tried the 4-6-8 thing. prior to their diesel fiasco, mercedes, VW, peugeot, and volvo all had successful diesel cars. afterwards, nobody would touch a diesel for many years. they are only just starting to come back now, though in fairness that also had to do with pollution regulations.

 

Anyone wonder how many more times the story will change before they finally deliver?

Are they really going to deliver an "assist" hybrid in 2007? Originally, it was going to be a "full" hybrid in 2006?

And how will that hybrid actually be configured? It's no secret that both GM & Honda have had problems with their Cone & Belt type CVT. In fact, that may be one of the reasons why the newest hybrid from Honda won't be using that type. That may be why Ford didn't go with that type too. The belt can slip under certain conditions.

It's sad that the other automakers didn't get a clue back in October 1997 when Toyota announced their new vehicle (on display at that now historic autoshow) called "Prius" wasn't a prototype, that is was the real mccoy and would be available for purchase just 2 months later. We have reports of how shocked everyone was that Toyota was able to accomplish such a feat. That PNGV hybrid prototypes the other automakers were working on weren't even expected for another 2 years.

You'd think they would work even harder to deliver something. Instead, they gave up. GM bad-mouthed hybrids as soon as they started hitting the roads in the United States. Ford didn't; instead, they whined for a tax-credit and complained that the technology was unrealistic for powerful vehicle like a SUV. Clearly, they were all wrong. They simply hoped the competition would fail, so they could resume business as usual. That didn't happen.

To make matters worse, the price-per-barrel of oil is skyrocketing. It briefly hit $55 yesterday. The price was only half that 2 years ago, when even some Prius owners mocked me for selecting $1.65 as the per-gallon price for gas on the "Selling Points" document. Now gas costs much more than that and there is no relief in sight.

Anywho, we know what the situation is now. Prius is so successful that Toyota cannot produce enough fast enough, the decision to setup production in the United States is a no-brainer, and the other HSD hybrids Toyota/Lexus later sells will take very little effort to promote.

 

Boy, everybody's jumping on the hybrid bandwagon, aren't they? (Even those who aren't technically up to it. )

Even though I'm glad to see more hybrids being built, it strikes me as simplistic marketing: the Prius is about the only car out there with a long waiting list. So, everyone starts running at the target of making a hybrid.

Trick is: people want a Prius, not just a hybrid.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(aarons12\";p=\"45485)</div>

Agreed -- though if no problems show up with the Prius, and GM makes a crappy hybrid, people will (hopefully) recognize the difference.

Interesting article on NPR: Ford's sales were worse than GM's this year -- but, GM is giving huge discounts on their cars at the moment. So there's a real question about whether they're making or losing money.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a\";p=\"45504)</div>

Just to be fair, I really do think Ford deserves some credit for going to a full hybrid with the Escape.

No, I wouldn't buy one, and I distrust a first generation Ford technology, but they took the step before any other American automobile maker did, and they've at least got their eye on the prize.

Whenever I look at what GM's doing, I want to pat Ford Jr. on the back.

 

while true they were the only ones to try it, I think that all the car companies had give thought to it but realized that it was probably unworkable. GM thought it was but in all reality, nope it wasn't. On the diesel front, I'm waiting for the fallout over the conversion to low sulfer which will be interesting, my prediction, in the loss of lubricity in the pump and injectors and what the "total" cost's will be.

 

I agree the Prius has a lot more going for it than just being a "hybrid"
That why i think if GM flops like it did with the diesels, it won't hurt hybrids in general because people can still point to the prius and say"hybrids work and work well, just make them correctly like Toyota does"

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bookrats\";p=\"45509)</div>

I fully intend to do exactly that... WHEN THEY ACTUALLY DELIEVER IT.

Right now, we only know of 1 that has been sold. And that is only in the specially selected, limited rollout area. And we haven't heard squat since.

When we finally get real-world reports from owners, then Ford gets credit.

Remember, some to this day still don't acknowledge the fact that Prius was available in Japan for 3 years before it debutted in the United States.

I love the fact that Ford has endorsed the "full" hybrid design. But to hear it advertised on the radio several times a day every single day, knowing that Ford still hasn't delivered any here and only 20,000 will be available, it's rather frustrating. Adding to that mess is not a good plan. Enough people are already frustrated with delivery waits.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a\";p=\"45519)</div>

They are out in the wild as we speak. A quick stroll thru escape-central confirms several owners with them.

Technically, the design seems very nice. Superior to the Prius in some aspects...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bookrats\";p=\"45507)</div>

This is one question that worries me. Hopefully with the popularity of the prius, people will be well informed of what a hybrid is by the time crappy ones start to roll out. As it stands, people ask me al the time about gas mileage only being 25mpg and asking if the car even goes fast enough to be on the highway. These two questions are heard all the time for me. It just makes me see that people still know nothing about this car. If a crappy car company tries to put out a "full hybrid" then it might wreck the image of the prius

This also brings me to my point that we need to boost image as much as possible. While fun and games to tell people that the car has a long extension cord and other misleading info, people don't know any better. Before you learned what a hybrid was, you were just as volnerable as they are.

I also think these mild hybrids give Toyota a bad name. Hopefully production will speed up to the point where toyota will make advertisement. People will hear the info if it's on the radio and tv.

I think most people worry about power. I don't see this as a problem though. The Lexus comming out is going to be faster than the current RX model which pulls a 0-60 of 7.7 seconds. Pretty good for an SUV. I make sure to inform people that when i drive bad, passing traffic all day long, i will not get below 40mpg. It's an awakening for people who love power. I also compair it to our 2002 Cadillac Deville.. which makes the Prius look good.

I think we need commercials. How long before this happens? who knows. I hope it comes before crappy hybrids are released... oops.. n/m.. Honda's in the market.

 

Jonnycat26,

Details please!

 

I agree Lindsay,
If the 2004 Prius had hit big, the dirt from any competing poor designs would probably have doomed it. I can't imagine anyone is going to buy a Chevy Silverado Hybrid and extol its mileage virtues. Hopefully the Escape won't have a bunch of problems, whether related to the hybrid system or not. It is very similar in design to the Prius and major failures of any sort will be looked at by the public as "hybrids are bad".

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(john1701a\";p=\"46008)</div>

Well, everyone over there with one seems to love them, but they are people who've lusted after them for months, so that's to be expected...

It seems that Ford has packaged the unit into a much smaller package (obviously, this does not include batteries). The entire assembly (including both generators and planetary CVT) fit in the space that a normal transmission fits into. It's been speculated that they can easily adapt this into other units very quickly if the demand is there and they feel comfortable ramping up production.

A quick edit... this isn't so much a technical issue as a design issue, but I think the Escape has a very cool dash setup. There's a charge/discharge gauge like the Honda IMA systems have, and there's also a tach, which will slot itself backwards behind 0 RPMs if the car is on battery. Very easy to understand and very intuitive.

 

The interesting line for me was:

"But GM is mum on its plans to offer other hybrid cars to help it catch up to the Japanese, which by '07 will have a seven-year lead in hybrid technology."

Shouldn't that be a 10 year lead, as John alludes?

Unless you only count the US market as being relevant

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tempus\";p=\"46014)</div>

Agree, Toyota actually has a 10-year head start on the full hybrid technology. Maybe the cylinder-on-demand concept might be a good idea for a full-hybred, but the Honda Accord system, adds 15 hp to the V6, but only adds 8-9 mpg (EPA estimates) to the standard V-6. To me that's not worth the approximately $3K increase in price, at only 8 or 9 mpg increase, it will take a long time to recoup the extra cost. My wife's standard V-6 Accord gets 29 mpg routinely...and we got the fully loaded version with Navi and paid, out the door, about $7K less than the $33K that a comparably Hybrid Accord will cost, plus you lose the sunroof on the Hybrid Accord....

Ford, is supposedly using the Toyota technology. My Toyota dealer told me, and this could be dealer hype, that Toyota licensed the 1st generation hybrid techology to Ford. I don't know if that's true and can't verify that ....can anyone help me on that and confirm or deny whether that is true??
Red

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(VARedDevil\";p=\"46029)</div>

It's a common misconception, and not at all true. Ford was using similar concepts to Toyota, and rather than face possible legal action, they did some patent sharing/licensing.

The Ford system is different in a number of ways from the original THS and HSD systems.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26\";p=\"46031)</div>

It's a common misconception, and not at all true. Ford was using similar concepts to Toyota, and rather than face possible legal action, they did some patent sharing/licensing.

The Ford system is different in a number of ways from the original THS and HSD systems.
[/b][/quote]

Great thanks for the info...

 

From what i've read over time, Toyota is leasing out technologies from the first generation hybrid. Ford was supposed to be a buyer of this technology. Nissan is one of there latest purchasers. Toyota is not going to give away their design for the CVT because from the looks of it, no one else is even close to a working design. Why give away the golden key. They are pattening out the rest of the design though... or, most of it. Thy are also putting caps on it too. Companies that lease the technology are limited to their production under contract with Toyota. So if anyone wonders why ford or nissan will only put out X many cars. It's because theya re limited under current contracts.

Feel free to correct me if i'm wrong in some form.. or if I mis phrased a fact. I'm sure John and a few others know this info. :mrgreen: