GM Hybrid to Undercut Prius

uh.... okay.

Lets see what you have.

 

:blink:

"Duhhh ... we're still selling vacuum tubes when the rest of the world has moved to VLSI that is robotically surface mounted and inspected using AOI and x-ray ..."

No wonder GM is in such deep s***.

 

Why would he say that to (presumably) an audience that doesn't even know what a vacuum tube IS...and many who don't know what a transistor is...

He might better have said, "We don't want to be selling low-quality, unreliable gas hogs, and paying our lawyers millions to fight heightened EPA fuel economy standards, when the rest...what?...excuse me?...REALLY?...uh, correction, we ARE selling low-quality, unreliable gas hogs..."

:lol:

 

Remember, we already know the details of the VUE Hybrid system.

While it's not exactly like the Sierra system, it's the same principle.

It has a battery, and a belt driven "Super Alternator".

This allows it to idle/stop at stop lights. The alternator captures energy when slowing, and uses it to restart the ICE after stops.

The difference with the VUE system, is that the alternator can also 'assist' during acceleration to make the car accelerate faster than the ICE alone. It doesn't assist at all during steady driving and can't propel the car alone. It only kicks in for a few seconds when you floor it.

That feature adds nothing to mileage.

I'm all for hybrid competition, and I hope Honda and everyone else comes out with killer hybrids that push Toyota hard and force them to improve and innovate rapidly and constantly. I don't care who has the 'best' hybrid, and I don't care if a better one comes out every week

But I don't think the VUE is going to put much pressure on anyone.

 

I actually liked the EV1. For my driving in Winnipeg, and especially with the low Manitoba Hydro power rates, it would have made a LOT more sense than buying a car that runs on gasoline.

Leave it to GM to kill the EV1 program and send all of them to the crusher. They were probably worried about the mixed messages they were sending their loyal buyers of unreliable gas guzzling 10 MPG SUV's and pickups.

 

All,

I'm not so sure that GM is completely off-base with this one. I still think the Hybrid system is a bit "gimmiky" at the end of the day, and the $4000 -$5000 price differential between the hybrid and standard car is still too steep for the average consumer.

I think a weak hybrid, that may cost only 1K-2K more then the non-hybrid car would be much more marketable if it were done correctly. Ok, so you think some of my tools are missing from the shed, marbles are missing, yada, yada. Here is a good example of what I'm talking about:

Here is my ideal weak hybrid.

1) Advanced engine. Either CAI similar to Honda's HCCI engine, or direct injection, with the atkinson cycle, could reasonably add efficiency up to 10-20 percent over current engines.

2) Make this a five cylinder engine, lets say 130-150 HP, but with variable valve displacement, so that at cruising speeds, you're down to 3 cylinders with only 70-90 HP. What do you say, about another 10% gain for that.

3) Advanced alternator with a small NMH battery, so that the car can shut down during deceleration and stop, which is already in the VUE. Another 5-10% or so.

4) CVT transmission for a bit more efficiency.

5) No regenerative breaking, no electric motors, just the standard mechanical powertrain, which will reduce cost, weight and complexity.

The current 2006 Civic sedan (140 HP) gets 30 city, 40 highway. Lets say you implement this system in that car, I see no reason why mixed mode MPG shouldn't be around the mid 40's. If the premium for this vehicle is half that of a full up hybrid, it may make a lot more cost effective for people to buy that car instead of the Prius. Consider the fact that a package #4, after tax and tags will run you in excess of 25,000. The Civic LX is what around 17000?

My main concern about Hybrids today is the cost. Look, I'm a single engineer, and do quite well for myself, but I still can't or at least won't pay for a package #6 Prius, it's just too damned expensive. I think if GM and Ford want to compete with, and even beat Toyota and Honda, looking for a way to manufacture the "everymans" hybrid may be the way to go. Of course we will have to assume that GM or Ford will have to do it right, which may be too much to ask!

Peace,
Cosmo

 

Don't forget a switched reluctance generator. That will replace the current alternator system and increase fuel economy by 5 - 10%. I hope they show up autos soon. It seems ridiculous that they havn't yet. Why not reuse the waste heat from combustion to do some work?

 

Tripp has made my point ,which is that there are a whole bunch of more conventional technologies out there that are not being utilized. If GM or Ford really tried to capitalize on those opportunities, it just may power them ahead in the 21st century.

Peace,
Cosmo

 

OH CRAP! And here I just spent all my money on a Prius that I really like that gets me 51 mpg... when could have waited and gotten GM's FLAGSHIP (ha!) SUV that costs slightly more and gets maybe 30 mpg.

Guess we all missed out by buying an UNTESTED technology TOO EARLY in the game, huh?

:lol:

 

News release...GM Executives have broken into the Politician's humidor and found the goods to be eminently smokable! Talk about wishy washy, they have sound bytes (bites!) coming out of every oroface and are hoping SOMETHING sticks. "Hybrids are a fad, no one wants them, they are not profitable" etc. out of one side of their mouth and then an article like the above negates it all. Like Enron, no one has held GM's feet to the fire and asked any important questions like..."What executive took the (2?) Billion dollars of R&D money Clinton gave them to get a competative edge on the Hybrid train, and (accidently) comingled the big bucks with their own personal accounts?" Where is the exact relationship between their failed EV1 and no one wanting Hybrids? Oh, they SAY 'no one wants 'those' cars', but Toyota has proven otherwise. When nations fall it is the little people who get trampled. When corporations fall, again, it is the workers who get shafted. When politicians f*** up it is 'other' people's kids who go to war and get killed. No wonder we are a nation of Chiefs and no Indians (go ahead, pound me for this). It wouldn't hurt so much that there are mere mortals on top of the heap who make mistakes just like I do, but they steal so much wealth (future) and their mistakes never affect them personally, just all those 'under' them. Once again, the Japaneese have it right...they limit highly paid compensation to a proportunate share of the lowest paid. Therefore when things go well all benefit, and when things go poorly, ALL suffer, thereby discouraging bad decisions (not eliminating them, alas).

 

Alright alright. It's well established that GM and Ford executives had their frontal lobes removed some time ago. I think Cosmo's point about off-the-shelf technologies is absolutely relavent. You don't need hybrid technology to substantially improve MPG (you need it to REALLY improve MPG). You just have to make the effort. Thus far, GM and Ford have failed on effort.

 

I could not agree more with everyones point on this thread.

But I must say I am deeply saddened. But please note that I too am going to be purchasing a Prius in January. However, it will be the first non-american car I have ever purchased. For whatever reason this country is showing signs of simple failure. Failure to compete, failure to lead, failure to engage in consensus building, etc etc etc. We are destined to a lower standard of living, in my opinion, unless collectively we all start to wake up to what is happening to us. I too am guilty. I just put down money on a purchase of a vehicle made not in the USA but outside. But until our corporate as well as government leaders start to make decisions which are more long term in nature we will continue to get comments from the likes of GM like we see above. I wonder what it will look like 20 or more years from now?

Time will certainly tell.

 

GM, maybe. Ford, I don't think so. They have a more efficient Hybrid SUV than Toyota, and they're coming out with a Hybrid version of the new Fusion sedan sometime next year. And unlike some companies (cough, Toyota) they've promised to keep their Hybrid approach focused on economy and emissions.

 

But cosmo, most of what you said is already in the 06 Civic Hybrid. Except that it may have a bigger battery pack that what you're thinking of. It has a 1.3 litre direct injection engine with VTEC (or was it i-VTEC?). It already puts out 90 something hp on its own. It's also rated to be close to the Prius highway mileage.


Sure, most of that stuff is in the Prius as well, but I think it is the addition of the weight of the battery pack and the addition of the electric motors that adds the extra cost and complexity of the system. Remember, what I was advocating here is a poor mans hybrid. I don't expect to get 50+ MPG without the full hybrid system. But think about this in terms of the standard Civic. The HCH is basically the HC LX model with a better sound system, plus all the components necessary for the hybrid to work. The LX costs $17310 (US). To include the better stereo system, and a couple small differences I'll round off the cost to $18000. The HCH costs $21850, for a difference of $3850. That's a fairly substantial difference. I woud be willing to bet the overwhelming percentage of that cost difference is made up by three components. 1) Battery, 2) Electric Motor plus IMA, 3) Necessary electrical wiring to the motor assist and hybrid components.

If that basic system is replaced by a battery just large enough to power the idle stop feature, add a next gen engine which takes advantage of variable displacement, uses an eCVT, and a few other off the shelf systems, I bet that Eco-Civic could achieve 70-80% of the efficiency gain of a full hybrid, at less then half the cost. Thats what I'm talking about. Heck, check out www.greencarcongress.com. They have an article about the HCCI engine that Honda is working on. Assuming the cost of that engine to mass produce is equivalent to a normal engine, mate that to a weak hybrid system, and you've got a huge boost right there.

I do agree with your point that the HCH probably is closer to a poor mans hybrid then the Prius, but the fact is that GM of Ford are not really attacking this problem very well, if at all. They COULD if they wanted to, and COULD beat Toyota and Honda at their own game. Imagine that Ford comes out with a smallish mid sized car, gets 5 or so less MPG then the Prius REALLY gets, which is still substantially higher then then the average mid sized vehicle, and oh yeah, it cost $4000 less then the Prius, with essentiall the same features. I'd buy that, and so would alot of other Americans. Especially those among us who feel compelled to buy an American brand.


Can't type anymore, fingers hurt.

Peace,
Cosmo

 

I really hope that GM can live up to the claim about building a hybrid that is better than the Prius. I don't enjoy buying a car that is literally made in Japan but I can't afford to drive a POS made by GM any more. It sort of reminds me of the old iron curtain days when we'd see recent pictures of Russians driving crappy old looking Russian made cars while we drove around in shiny new American cars, thinking how awful it must be to be in a country where you have to buy the cars made there even though they're substandard. Thankfully, we can still buy foreign but it is distressing to see GM struggling so much. It can't be any fun at all to be working at GM these days, and I feel for them for what they're going through, whether it's entirely self-inflicted or not. It must be awful having to put a happy face on such depressing circumstances so I'm sure that the manufacturers of heartburn remedies, among others, are selling a lot of product to GM employees. If they had been producing a hybrid that was reliable and durable and was engineered as thoughtfully as the Prius is, I'd have bought one but they don't and that's why a Prius is parked in my garage.