GM announces introduction of Hydrogen Fuel cell car

Really? What about winter? The last I heard, was Honda held the cold temperature fuel-cell record: 20F

It routinely stays colder than that here for a week at a time. What the heck would I drive then?

Of course, it really doesn't matter. If Prius were upgraded to match, also using aluminum for its body and lithium-ion batteries for its pack, the improvement would really sour the appeal this article spins.

The energy loss from converting electricity to hydrogen still doesn't make any sense either. Why not avoid that process entirely and use electricity as-is by just adding a plug to a hybrid?

 

Let me guess.

They'll lease 100 to movie stars and rich people.

And when the lease is up they'll collect them, crush them and say no one wanted them because they were too expensive, no fuel conveniently located, short range, bad cold performance, etc.

Then they'll sell more SUVs.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Sep 23 2006, 08:37 AM) [snapback]323880[/snapback]</div>

Your crystal ball is working perfectly! You just be doing your oil changes regularly.

That said, I'll be amazed if 100 of them get on the road at all. We've heard that they'll be on the road "next year" for about 15 years now. Remember those "fuel-cell-powered laptops" that were supposed to be on the market in a year or two? Well, that started about ten years ago as well. Last I heard, they're just a year away now...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Sep 23 2006, 11:37 AM) [snapback]323880[/snapback]</div>

No... they're leasing 100 to 'normal people' who have a wide range of driving habits. They want to see how the cars handle a wide variety of, well, driving.

I'm glad to see *someone* moving forward with the future.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Sep 23 2006, 09:58 AM) [snapback]323913[/snapback]</div>

Are you referring to the coporation that ten years ago built the "car of the future," and then took them all back after the vehicle proved itself?

You really feel that GM is "moving forward with the future" more than any other automaker? These are the same folks who publicly announced about five years ago that Americans don't want hybrids, and that GM won't "go there."

As for GM FCV's, here is how that article ends: "The issue is to get the technology out there in ever larger test fleets, with, hopefully, some real sales very early in the next decade.â€

Looking for "some" real sales in the next decade! We could have 300-mile battery cars on the road TODAY at 1/10 the cost and 4x the efficiency of a FCV. Hello?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Sep 23 2006, 01:24 PM) [snapback]323932[/snapback]</div>

And you should know, I hope, that a FCV > a true ECV. There's no battery replacement costs down the road. That's one of the things that continues to make people nervous about cars like the Prius.

 

Anybody find this paragraph funny?

"How will the hydrogen fuel be produced? What sort of fuel is consumed in the process of producing hydrogen? How will the fuel be distributed? Mr. Burns suggests that one solution might be nuclear reactors, situated on high-security United States military bases and dedicated to making the electricity needed to produce hydrogen for transportation needs."


Really, Mr Burns suggests using nuclear reactors?....Excellent!

 

er..........does GM happen to mention where it can be fueled? <_< <_< <_<

 

It seems that if you took one of these Sequels and stripped the fuel cell and hydrogen tanks out, and put batteries in, you would have something worth while. Oh wait... thats an electric vehicle and it can be fueled at home! We can't have that!

With about 2000# of weight available for batteries I am pretty sure you could have a 300 mile range with L-Ion.

-------------------------------

John1701a - "Really? What about winter? The last I heard, was Honda held the cold temperature fuel-cell record: 20F
It routinely stays colder than that here for a week at a time. What the heck would I drive then?"


http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/adv_te..._fcv/index.html

"GM has made great strides in solving many of the challenges inherent in fuel cell technology, including the tendency to freeze and stop working in cold weather. The GM fuel cell's freeze start-up time has decreased to less than 15 seconds for 100% power at minus 20 degrees Celsius."

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(darelldd @ Sep 23 2006, 12:24 PM) [snapback]323932[/snapback]</div>

Why are they making fuel cell and not electric vehicles again? Is there a logic? I am not kidding, I really don't get it at all?!?

Also, has anyone had to buy an "expensive replacement battery" for their Prius yet? I keep hearing that is the fear but I haven't heard of anyone having to do that yet.

Thanks!!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(narussian @ Sep 24 2006, 01:34 AM) [snapback]324167[/snapback]</div>

Because if you buy photovoltaic panels for your roof, you're self-sufficient. Even if you don't you're paying the Gas and Electric Company, not the Oil Companies and Gas Refineries. It's about control.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(narussian @ Sep 24 2006, 01:34 AM) [snapback]324167[/snapback]</div>

Nope. Not that I know of. At least not for "natural" causes.

 

I don't see how having the ability to plug our Pruis in solves anything-unless the other end of the extension is plugged into some source of "zero" emission power plant or renewable, much less poluting, source.

Educate me!

Is anyone using solar panels at all?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(YBLee @ Sep 24 2006, 12:28 PM) [snapback]324278[/snapback]</div>

You're making the long tailpipe argument... detractors of EV and plug in technology like to point out that most of the power plants in this country are still coal burning ones, and that somehow you'll get equal or worse pollution when you use an electric vehicle than if you burned gasoline in your car...

The devil is in the details... even if the power plant on the other end is a polluting coal burning plant, it's significantly more efficient and cleaner than burning gasoline locally inside your ICE. By an order of magnitude more efficient and cleaner.

Plus, the electricity is generated at a power plant away from urban centers.

It also leaves open the possibility of future renewable clean energy like wind, hydro, solar, etc to be put into the electric mix.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tideland Prius @ Sep 23 2006, 03:24 PM) [snapback]323980[/snapback]</div>

Great point! FC cars are most likely going to be hybrids in the future because the fuel cell doesn't have the characteristics of an ICE in terms of acceleration... to make the car actually accelerate nearly as decently as a modern ICE, you'd have to combine it with a battery to be able to provide the reservoir of electricity necessary for times when you are accelerating hard.

http://graphics10.nytimes.com/images/2006/...llsub_graph.gif <- YUP! it has a big li-ion battery in the back, so it is indeed a hybrid!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Sep 23 2006, 01:35 PM) [snapback]323940[/snapback]</div>

FCVs should make people much more nervous than hybrid cars... It's a DRASTICALLY different technology than the ICE that we've all gotten used to... at least the hybrid has conventional components and needs to have its oil replaced, has spark plugs, etc... FCV takes the big book of automobile knowledge and throws it out.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Jonnycat26 @ Sep 23 2006, 10:35 AM) [snapback]323940[/snapback]</div>

I should know what? Not sure I follow. Not only do we NOT have a portable fuel cell stack that will last as long as far cheaper batteries... but we also don't have an automotive fuel cell stack that can power a car without using batteries! You want nervous? How about the thought of replacing a $750k fuel stack twice before $30k of today's batteries would need replacing? Honestly - you think that a FCV isn't going to use these same scary batteries? They have to - you can't get power out of the FC stack fast enough to accelerate the vehicle.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(YBLee @ Sep 24 2006, 09:28 AM) [snapback]324278[/snapback]</div>

You make the assumption that a power plant that makes pollution is going to be just as bad as gasoline that makes pollution. It ain't like that! When you burn gasoline, you burn gasoline. When you use electricity - that power can come from just about anything - it is the ultimate fexible fuel. Others have covered the pollution business already - and I'd like to add:

1. Making gasoline uses about as much electricity as my car uses for traction power.
2. The electricity for my car comes from my solar panels.

Want to be educated? Click on the EV link in my sig, and read some FAQ's and details of my solar array.

 

Geez, powerplants need to be as productive as possible.

They use turbines, which turn the generators. The gas-to-electricity ratio could not be higher no matter how many engineers you throw at it.

With pistons and a transmission, you get at least 40% loss of energy, in a regular motor. Rotary engines, where the pistons are round cylinder rings, half that loss.

A turbine would have less than 1% loss. Less polution too, as gas emissions are re-fed into the turbine and re-burnt. Better filters and better maintenance.

So to re-use electricity in a car, instead of the piston-transmission gas car, be it an all-electric or PHEV, is better for the environment.

However the gas companies are sponsoring news reports and studies to be against this. Horror of horrors should their gas-pump economy should shrink.

The gas companies even prefer sponsoring the fuel-cell & hydrogen, anything to keep the North American consumer going to gas stations.

Refining gas is part of the gas-pump economy. Distribution rakes in big bugs. If this shifts from Oil to Diesel to Electric Utility to Your Car . . .

Instead of Oil to Diesel to Premium to Distribution to Gas Stations to Your Car.

 

It's 2009.

Everyone has written GM off as crazy for investing billions in the fuel-cell "skateboard" uder-vehicle platform.

Fossil fuel prices are through the roof and as a result so is the cost of hydrogen.

But then Bob Lutz sets his secret plan into action, kept quiet for almost a decade as he springs a mighty blow against all the other car makers.

He realised all along that hydrogen was a total loss, but used it as a smokescreen to hide his true intentions - to create a Battery-Electric skateboard uder-vehicle platform!

Now at the last minute he sticks in the lithium-ion batteries he'd been quietly arranging behind the scenes and presto - a 300 mile range vehicle with all the R&D for the electrical systems, wheel motors, control architecture already performed and nobody realised! First to market with a real EV.

GM steals a huge march on Toyota. The public vote with their wallets and the secret plan has worked.