Global warming could cost billions

The problem being that if the rest of the world does something and the U.S. continues to ignore the problem and conduct business as usual....it won't matter what the rest of the world does, we're still screwed.

It has to be everyone, altogether. And it has to last longer than a year or two. It has to be long term and we have to wait patiently for decades before we'll be able to note a significant change for the better.

Personally, I don't think the U.S. government is that patient, nor that much of a team player. At least not under this administration. Perhaps we should keep this in mind when we go to the polls in a few weeks, and in subsequent elections.

 

To hell with the consequences. Big corporations and government have known what is coming down the pike for decades. Let's maximize our profits now (does Exxon/Mobil sound familiar) cause we know they're probably not going to be as great in the future as our resources dwindle.

I don't think government, and certainly industry, taking a leadership role is the answer to our global problems. We, as consumers and global citizens are. Look how fast some corporations are jumping on the band wagon to be perceived as green as a part of being politically correct.

As part of the design community, I am involved in a huge trend toward self sustainability and conservation design practices (LEED, Green Building Council. - much higher standards than any local or state regulations, but still voluntary) It is an education process in which all the answers are not known. The clients who hire me with local, regional, global environmental considerations are still the minority, but are growing in number each year. To their credit, maximizing profit per square foot of retail/office space is not the number one priority.

Our food, our cars, our light bulbs, our urban sprawl, our over consumption and waste - as much as I hate the overused term "Grass Roots", that's exactly what will drive the required change. The "conservation", "eco" conscious mentality has to become ingrained in every consumption related action we do.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dreichla @ Oct 30 2006, 08:12 AM) [snapback]340561[/snapback]</div>

You *are* the government. Vote accordingly.

Otherwise, I agree with your post whole-heartedly.

 

I am a cynic.

The American public is totally brainwashed into the consumerist mentality. They want everything and thery want it now. And they are not only willing, but happy, to go deeply into debt to have it now. The capitalist economy requires consumerism to thrive, and business needs to sell its products to make a profit, and the nation needs people to keep buying stuff in order for the economy to continue to function or we get recession, depression, unemployment. Thus politicians push consumerism to keep unemployment down so they can keep getting elected. Business executives need to show profit in order to keep their jobs and get their bonuses because they, too, are brainwashed into the consumerist mentality and they, too, want to have stuff, and have it now. (Though their toys might be jets and yachts, where the working class toys are TV sets and cars.) We are not immune: we love our Priuses, which we justify because they burn a little less gas and pollute a little less than our neighbors' cars. (Remember the log and the speck?)

There are solutions, but they require a sea change in our entire society: A change from consumerism to sustainability, from capitalism to an economy not constructed upon the profit motive (the greed motive), from selfishness to selflessness, from fear to brotherhood, from competition to cooperation, and from demagogery to honest leadership.

It would require a revolution. But we know from bitter experience that violent revolutions always make things worse, because the paradigm of violence brings the worst elements into leadership. So it must be a nonviolent revolution, but the American public is so completely brainwashed into the belief that only through violence can we solve our most stubborn problems, that they refuse to consider nonviolent methods of addressing problems.

First you need to educate the public in methods of nonviolence and convince them that such methods can work. Then you need to educate them on the functioning of consumerism and its pernicious effects, and convince them to accept sustainability both as national policy and in their own private finances. Then you have to organize them sufficiently to make an organized push for change, and convince them to accept the short-term sacrifices involved in such a struggle, which will include violent repression from the entrenched power structure, as it does whatever it thinks necessary to hold onto power. And finally, you need to begin to build a whole new kind of society within the old society, because if the old one falls before the new one is built, there will be chaos.

None of the above is "practical," and I don't see any of these steps being accepted by the public, so brainwashed that they not only believe what they see on Fox news, they even believe what they see on the commercials.

So I am a cynic.

And besides, I am part of the problem. I am willing to spend extra money for a more environmental car, but I am not willing to give up my car. I recycle, but I am not willing to eliminate waste. I give to the poor and to environmental and politically-progressive organizations, but I am not willing to give up my economically-privileged status. And if I won't reduce my environmental footprint to a level that is honestly sustainable (and even the most radical environmentalists leave a footprint enormously larger than the poor of Africa or Latin America) then how can I expect anyone else to?

I admire and applaud and even help to finance those who are continuing the struggle. But I honestly think the world is going to hell in a handbasket and my country is leading the way with sword-arms outstretched and a war whoop of victory as we plunge into our own destruction.

 

Daniel - you hit the nail on the head. We as society have been conditioned to expect, consume, and think the way we do. Instant gratification is our credo.

Our selfish mindset didn't happen over night, and it certainly won't change quickly as well. Drastic regulations, restrictions, or price changes will certainly cause world-wide chaos and instability. But in a capitalistic society, if there's money to be made in being "green" - then so be it. Slowly turning the power of our insatiable consumerism into a means for positive change could be a powerful tool.

You may be cynical - nothing wrong with that. The eternal optimist in me says if we change slowly, we, and our future generations, can have our cake and eat it too. The cynic in me says, if we do nothing, we're screwed.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Oct 30 2006, 11:06 AM) [snapback]340598[/snapback]</div>

Maybe it is you who is brainwashed? 300,000,000 Americans have been presented the "evidence" of global warming and are electing at this point to not believe it. Heck, even Clinton did not push Kyoto. Maybe just maybe the few believers are the brainwashed ones given the fact the clear majority of Americans are not willing to act on the limited info to date.

"It would require a revolution" - does this give you a heads up to anything. And, am I understaning you correctly in your call for a violent revolution? And what does this tell you?

You need to convince people that nonviolance works?? Show me a dozen good examples of how non-violance solved anything real over the past 1,000 years of mans history?

You say you are part of the problem - I am not going to touch that one one iota. But I think you are getting it to some degree - reality is reality.

 

You can count me as one of the "minority" who believes global warming is real and exacerbated by mankind.

 

Kyoto isn't the answer to the problem. It just creates a cartel environment where the cheaters win. It's classic game theory stuff. People need to understand that 1.) biz as usual is going to cost us a fortune and will hamper economic prosperity and 2.) that there's a metric nice person load of money to be made in developing a more sustainable, healthier economy.

berman, I'm not sure where you get the "300m have spoken". That's clearly not the case. If it were, there wouldn't be 20 states with RPS mandates. People aren't willing to freak out based on what they've seen but there is growing concern and growing awareness that we're shooting ourselves in the foot (notice choice of body part).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Oct 30 2006, 12:18 PM) [snapback]340628[/snapback]</div>

Ahh yes... those damned scientists brainwashed us by presenting us with facts. damn them.

Or could it, just possibly, be the big, multinational oil companies who have a direct interest in oil sales that are doing the brainwashing?

I know, a quote from a stupid movie... but there is quite a bit of truth in it. Throughout history, established, political organizations have always worked hard to maintain the status quo. The church refused to acknowledge that the earth was round, and later that it wasn't the center of the universe, and most people believed them. And yet we now know the truth - unless you want to argue those, too.

You try to use Kyoto to support your position - Were you aware of what really happened, or did you just listen to the political hype of "Clinton didn't ratify it because global warming isn't an issue"? The truth of the matter is:
- The US is a signatory of the bill, which would seem to indicate that it holds some merit.
- The US hasn't withdrawn from the bill - while we aren't acting on it, we also aren't completely ignoring it.
- The true reason behind not ratifying the bill has to do with politics and economics. Simply put, the bill would put a huge strain on the US economy, costing us billions of dollars, if not more.
- Currently, China, the worlds second greatest emitter of carbons, is granted an exception - but if ratified the US would not be, which would put us at a huge economic disadvantage against our greatest economic rival.

Finally, I'd like you to point out, specifically, what established groups would benefit from "brainwashing" people into believing in Global warming. And try to stay away from the recent startups in the past 5-10 years that aim to take advantage of the situation. On the other hand, some of the groups that would benefit from the opposite (ie global warming isn't occurring) are some where we've seen similar actions before: the oil industry.

He's clearly not calling for a violent revolution - he even states, very clearly, "that violent revolutions always make things worse, because the paradigm of violence brings the worst elements into leadership" and then goes on to explain what a non violent revolution would look like.

1. During the Second World War, Danish shipbuilders practiced noncooperation when they feigned misunderstanding and worked so poorly that their ship could not be used in war.

2. Greenpeace

3. Gandhi

4. lunch counter sit-ins of the civil rights movement


Those are just some of the bigger things. There are countless examples that follow those, from sit-ins to peaceful protests to the policies of a company. Unions would stage peaceful protests but refusing to go to work - and for the most part they would achieve their goals without any violence.

 

Daniel, seriously, is this a troll? I'll bite!! ZZZZIIIIINNNNGGGG....

Your apparent hatred and disillusionment of the American way of life is simply astounding. Please share with us your list of countries which are so much better than the US and why. No one is constrained to live in America. You are free to renounce your citizenship at any moment and move to whatever country will allow you into their borders and live as a citizen. Activist and Hollywood actor Alec Baldwin announced he would do such a thing when George W. Bush won the last election, but, hmmm, for some reason he never got around to doing it (could it be the taxes are too high in France!).

You want your Prius (a very technologically advanced automobile), you want your computers, your internet, modern medical technology (I trust you have at some time in your life been to a hospital or seen an American doctor/dentist), (the list could go on forever...) and yet you seem to lead us to believe this would all be possible in an economy with no incentives or rewards (read capitalism). Please share with us countries who are not Capitalist (even the French have some forms of Capitalism in their economy) in any way and produce products or even a way of life which allows expressionism, invention, freedom... Let's start with the Taliban, er, no that won't work. Ok, how about Iran, no, uh, let's see, Russia, no, maybe you can help...

Too bad, according to you, Fox news came along and drove in the final nail in our Global Warming coffin. If it wasn't for those pesky guys and gals at Fox news we just might convince the American public to give up Capitalism as we know it.

I have seen the manmade Global Warming arguments and am throughly convinced it is all about politics, money, and power (oh, and did I mention MONEY?). Reports have been leaked from Britian about the British governments eagerness to use the Global Warming schemes to generate huge amounts of taxes. Mark my words, much to the liberals delight, our own beloved 1040 will soon have a line and worksheet regarding YOUR Global Warming tax due.

Rick
#4 2006 and soon to be moving to Africa in a mud hut to reduce my Global Warming footprint (do they have broadband internet in those huts???...need my Priuschat everyday)

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Oct 30 2006, 10:06 AM) [snapback]340598[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Oct 30 2006, 01:18 PM) [snapback]340712[/snapback]</div>

You won't get one because no one can find one. The whole thing is summarized quite nicely here: http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/leave.htm

Pierre Salinger, White House press secretary during the Kennedy administration, on the other hand ...

He moved to France in 2002.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(viking31 @ Oct 30 2006, 10:45 AM) [snapback]340684[/snapback]</div>

Yes. We've seen your "arguments" before. You don't seem capable of defending them, but whatever.

What was you response in this thread? So far it's been "....".

BTW, I think that capitalism is about the only way out of the current situation that we've got ourselves into. Of course, that starts with the admission of the problem. That's where viking is stuck. I think that this is a huge opportunity for all of us to make scads of cash, improve the global standard of living, and leave our kids and grand kids with a decent place to live. Lets face it. Biz as usual isn't sustainable. As China and India continue to grow economically we're to chew through our fossil resources. Those resources will continue to be important for a long time but we need to aggressively promote replacement technologies and we need to be aware of the real costs of fossil fuel consumption. Stop the handouts, put more money into alternatives.

 

You are right. I did not mean to disparage one of the great icons of the neolibs. I know many on Priuschat look up to him and I am sorry if you/they were offended. Some debate does exist as to whether Alec actually said such a statement. I meant film director Robert Altman.

Of course, logic would dictate that since I was wrong on that point that proves unequivocably that manmade Global Warming does exist.

#4 2006
Still looking for a minimalist carbon footprint mud hut in Zimbabwe. Get 'em now, there going fast!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Oct 30 2006, 01:18 PM) [snapback]340712[/snapback]</div>

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(eagle33199 @ Oct 30 2006, 01:02 PM) [snapback]340647[/snapback]</div>

I would like real examples of non-violent revolution:
1. nice try, but it did not stop the Nazis from doing thier dirty work
2. Greenpeace? What have they done - I did not know that the Sperm Whales were trying to subjugate humans and greenpeace intervened.
3. Gandhi - agreed - amazing - right person right place right time right conditions - the exception not the rule
4. Lunch counter sit-ins - -- are you referring to the trans-fat wars that are being fought :lol:

Seriously - you named ONE instance were non-violence worked and that was because the Brits knew the jig was up anyhow. Name a few more with meaningful consequences.

thanks

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Oct 30 2006, 01:03 PM) [snapback]340648[/snapback]</div>

Your point? And what was the % of Dems and Repubs and non-affiliated in these polls. What was the age spread and the level of education. And when were these polls taken? And you are exprapolating to 300,000,000 from polls of 1,000?

I guess you like the polls that had Kerry and Gore ahead all the while too?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Dragonfly @ Oct 30 2006, 01:59 PM) [snapback]340736[/snapback]</div>

They are not.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Oct 30 2006, 10:06 AM) [snapback]340598[/snapback]</div>

Neither is CNN, ABC, NBC, George W. Bush, Nancy Pelosi, Alec Baldwin, etc. My reference was simply tongue in cheek from Daniel's assertion as quoted above.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Proco @ Oct 30 2006, 01:27 PM) [snapback]340719[/snapback]</div>

Good, more proof that manmade Global Warming does exist. Now at least we know when Global Warming strikes (or is it the conservatives?) we can move to France to avoid it/them... But I suppose it does help when you move to France that your name is Pierre...

#4 2006
Where's that confounded mud hut????