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Fuel injector cleaner in the tank: the case of the missing photos

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by pasadena_commut, Aug 2, 2024.

  1. pasadena_commut

    pasadena_commut Senior Member

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    My son gave us a membership as a present to Sam's Club a while back so that we could partake of their cheap gas. Which we did for a year. Then I discovered much to my chagrin that unlike all the major gas stations and Costco it wasn't top tier gas. Oops. So, remembering back to the bad old days when gas wasn't full of detergent and injectors would often work poorly, it seemed like a good idea to put some injector cleaner through. Poured a bottle of Techron in and hoped for the best. (Both cars were running OK, if they were gummed up, it wasn't too bad.)

    Then when I thought about it, I realized that in all the "injector cleaner in the gas tank" videos, web pages, advertisements, and blog posts I have come across, there was one thing I had never, ever seen. That is: before and after pictures of the spray pattern for an injector which has been treated with a bottle of injector cleaner in the tank. Also missing: measures of the flow rate before and after. There are lots of pictures of the tops of pistons, which is all well and good if one cares about a little carbon on top, but doesn't really say anything useful about what happens inside a gummed up plastic injector at vastly lower temperatures and much higher solvent concentrations. There were before and after pictures from injector cleaning services, but their cleaning conditions are usually very different, like running normal gasoline through an injector while it turns on and off tens of thousands of times in an ultrasonic bath.

    These products have a reputation for being snake oil, so if I was a manufacturer trying to sell this product, I would be sure to present this information to the consumer. But they don't. Perhaps because it really is snake oil, or at least, is only useful for keeping the injectors clean but will not clean a dirty one?

    Anyway, if anybody has a link to the missing photos cited above, please post it!
     
  2. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    While there are always exceptions, the gasoline supply in the USA today is very clean compared to other industrialized nations, or even the USA of 50+ years ago.

    ...it's almost as if they are marketing to your fears, rather than the facts.
     
  3. Tombukt2

    Tombukt2 Senior Member

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    I thought it was techron or one of those companies that had exactly those pictures on the stick out part of the label that comes on those fancy techron bottles certain times of the year during certain marketing campaigns or what the heck ever I thought STP might have done the same too but maybe that was the pictures of the tops of the pistons which is irrelevant. But just this things go I would think even a metal injector or the poly injectors You know with 200,000 miles on them or better it might just be a good idea to exchange them for a set of clean ones just because certainly can't hurt cleaned injectors you know you're talking $48 or something as a place right up the street from me called diesel something another that's what they do work on diesel fuel injection systems they have a setup that can blow out and clean up injectors that are very expensive to replace generally speaking so they can get lot of mileage out of them or whatever you hours something It is possible. I realize diesel is much dirtier than other fuels but then again lots of people are running fancy filters where needed and that can go a long way to the cleanliness and what have you But just at the mileage rate or the amount of hours on a set of injectors at 200,000 mi just seems to me getting a new set or at least a clean calibrated set with a clean bill of health would kind of makes sense seems like it's a relatively inexpensive way to know that at least you're injecting what you need to be and you're not sure anyway.
     
  4. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Four new Toyota injectors would be kind of an expensive purchase to make "just because".

    Four new internet injectors can be relatively inexpensive, but you might be using them to replace better injectors (or injectors that would be better after bench cleaning).

    The approach that seemed most satisfactory to me several years ago was to use an injector restoring service that provided before and after reports on the flow patterns and rates. The before report gave you a way to know whether you had been on the right track to suspect the injectors in the first place, and the after report gave you confidence on what you were putting back in.

    The downside of that approach was car downtime while the injectors were off for restoration. For a while we had a thing going where we'd cross-ship you the latest restored set and you'd ship yours to the restorer.

    By the way, what we observed while we had that thing going was that two out of three times, the injectors weren't a problem; they already passed with flying colors in the 'before' test, and of course the swap did not end up fixing those owners' engine issues.

    In contrast, when the 'before' testing showed them bad, the engine issue was definitely resolved after the swap. And a few attempts with in-tank cleaning products had already been made and not resolved the issue, so that lent support to the idea that the in-tank products are not as effective.
     
    #4 ChapmanF, Aug 2, 2024
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2024
  5. pasadena_commut

    pasadena_commut Senior Member

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    I think you may be referring to the picture shown about 1/4 of the way down here:

    Techron® Concentrate Plus | Caltex Hong Kong

    Notice the asterisk: "results may vary"? There is no information provided to support the idea that picture is representative. For all we know that picture is a 1 in 1000 result, with 999/1000 having no significant improvement.

    Again, I'm not saying that Techron in gas at the pump isn't very good at keeping the fuel system clean. But that's a much easier task than removing crud that is already firmly attached.
     
  6. Tombukt2

    Tombukt2 Senior Member

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    So then the lesson learn is that the Toyota injectors are pretty good and even if high mileage and all that many of them still work up to snuff and it's not worth fooling with them perfect sounds good to me.
     
  7. pasadena_commut

    pasadena_commut Senior Member

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    Back on topic, here is a video about Techron from Chevron. Notice anything missing?



    Now that I'm looking for it, the ads for this entire class of products are remarkably data free.

    There are also "on car" injector cleaners. These plug into the fuel rail and run their cleaner (often a 50/50 mixture of some cleaner and gasoline) straight into the engine. The gasoline engine runs until the cleaner mixture runs out. So far I have not found before/after measurements of fuel injectors for this type of cleaning either. This method is more likely to get the injector clean than an in tank cleaner, since the cleaner is much more concentrated as it passes through, but that may also be more likely to damage the injectors for the same reason.

    The injector cleaning shops are the only ones which reliably provide before/after numbers and/or pictures.

    So, I thought about how one would set up a reliable test for comparing in tank fuel injector cleaners, and it becomes evident in short order that the hardest part would be making a "standard" dirty injector so that all cleaners face the same challenge. Looking at the injector cleaning shop reports they often find a wide range of performance for the injectors from a single car, which have been exposed to as close to "the same" conditioning as one could reasonably manage. One can imagine some "gunking chamber" which runs a standard low quality gas (no detergents) through a large set of injectors, and temperature cycles them to approximate what happens in a car. Probably for 24 hours a day for months. However, if the in car results are any guide, the likely outcome would be unacceptably nonuniform "dirty injectors". To work around that one could test the "before" performance of each injector, assemble closely matched sets, install them in identical cars, run the cleaners, then pull the injectors and test again. Sounds like a time intensive and very expensive experiment. Chevron could afford it, but they don't have much incentive to do this, since they sell tons of Techron on nothing more than "trust us"! Also they would likely find that the product failed at an embarrassingly high rate, which they would rather not document, and they certainly wouldn't want to advertise it.

    A cheaper test might be possible on cars with individual cylinder fuel control if that data can be read from the OBD2 port. Find cars with a wide variation in the per cylinder values (with brand new plugs to eliminate that variable), and then run cleaner through them. If it works they should even out, if not, then they won't. Mechanical defects at the cylinder or in the injector would greatly complicate the analysis.
     
  8. pasadena_commut

    pasadena_commut Senior Member

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    This is still anecdotal, but if the guy is remembering the details accurately, it contains a description of some reasonable tests:

    https://hummer4x4offroad.com/forum/threads/injector-cleaner.6639/#post-115588

    Just in case that site ever disappears, I am going to quote the whole post here:

     
    #8 pasadena_commut, Aug 3, 2024
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2024
  9. pasadena_commut

    pasadena_commut Senior Member

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    This gets more and more bizarre. Recall how Top Tier gas is supposed to limit deposits on valves, cylinders, and in the fuel injectors? Turns out that the testing requirement for fuel injectors was removed in 2015. That test used to be part 4.3.1.3 of the standard, but it no longer is:

    https://www.toptiergas.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/10/TOP_TIER_Detergent_Gasoline_Performance_Standard_revF_2019-12.pdf

    I have not been able to locate an earlier revision that contains the old fuel injector test requirement. Which is too bad, as it would have been nice to know how that test was performed.